Burstein questions Arnold Joseph
MR. BURSTEIN: Should we start with Mr.
17 Joseph, then?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Please.
19 MR. OLIN: I do want to remind the panel
20 and Mr. Burstein that we promised last time--
21 Mr. Joseph has been on and off the stand about
22 half a dozen times and interrupted for various
23 witnesses, but the last time Mr. Burstein
24 promised he had 15 or 20 minutes left with Mr.
25 Joseph .
2 MR. BURSTEIN: That is the problem with
3 having a delay of three or four months. I can't
4 promise you 15 or 20 minutes.
5 MR. OLIN: He has already had many, many
6 hours with Mr. Joseph .
7 MR. BURSTEIN: We will be done in plenty
8 of time. All we are looking for is the truth .
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go forward. Mr.
10 Joseph, you remain under oath from your prior
11 testimony. Are you aware of that?
12 THE WITNESS: I understand that.
13 (Arnold C. Joseph resumes previously
15 BY MR. BURSTEIN:
16 Q. Mr. Joseph, am I correct between
17 the Daniels fight in February 2002 and May 2002
18 DKP never wrote you or Mr. Hopkins a letter
19 designating Betare or Hakkar as the opponent DKP
20 wanted Bernard Hopkins to fight next?
21 A. What were the dates?
22 Q. Between February 2002 and May 2002.
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Certainly-- if you take a look at
25 Exhibit 8-K in your book, this is a letter that
2 you sent Mr. King on or about May 13, 2002. If
3 you look at the second paragraph, certainly as
4 of May 2002, it was your understanding that DKP
5 had been pushing, as you called it, the wait for
6 Roy Jones and HBO plan?
7 A. Is there a question?
8 Q. Is that correct? Is that what you
9 were saying as of May 13?
10 A. I can read the letter. I just
11 restate what is in the letter.
12 Q. I am asking you not whether you can
13 read the letter. Is that a letter you sent in
14 which you said that as of May 13, Don King
15 Productions had been pursuing the wait for Roy
16 Jones and HBO plan?
17 A. I am reading the letter .
18 MR. BURSTEIN: Could I respectfully, I
19 think it is a simple yes-or-no question.
20 THE WITNESS: I can't answer the question
21 unless I read the letter .
22 THE CHAIRMAN: He says is this a letter
23 in which you stated what it says there and is
24 that your position. That is really what he is
2 THE WITNESS: To that I can say yes.
3 There was something else he said.
4 Q. Even putting aside the letters, you
5 never had a conversation or Mr. Hopkins never
6 had a conversation with anyone at DKP between
7 February 2 and at least May 21, 2002 in which
8 you were told that DKP wanted the WBC mandatory
9 to go forward as Bernard Hopkins's next fight?
10 A. I don't recall. I recall having
11 conversations with him about whether or not the
12 mandatory was necessary and him --
13 MR. BURSTEIN: I move to strike. I just
14 asked a specific question as to whether or not
15 you were told this, not what everyone else was
17 THE CHAIRMAN: You are right. Just stick
18 with what he is asking.
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Take a look at Exhibit A M. This
21 is a letter written by Mr. Hopkins on May 21,
22 2002, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You received a copy of this?
25 A. Yes.
2 Q. You see that Mr. Hopkins wrote that
3 DKP had not provided us with any information
4 about my WBC mandatory. Do you see that?
5 A. I see that.
6 Q. Do you recall seeing this letter at
7 or about the time it was sent since you are a CC
8 on it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does that refresh your recollection
11 that as of at least May 21 DKP had not provided
12 you with any information concerning the WBC
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is there anything that would
16 refresh your recollection as of whether as of
17 May 21 DKP had provided you any information
18 about your mandatory?
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. As of May 23, if you look at
21 Exhibit A N, you wrote to Mr. Sulaiman
22 expressing Mr. Hopkins' readiness to fight his
23 mandatory, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And between May 23 and July 2, do
2 you recall if DKP ever told you that it wanted
3 Bernard Hopkins to fight the WBC mandatory
4 before fighting Trinidad?
5 A. Yes, definitely.
6 Q. Isn't it a fact that at the
7 Atlantic City meeting that you had in June 2002
8 it was according to you Bernard Hopkins who
9 asked about fighting the mandatory and it was
10 Don King who said let's do Trinidad first?
11 A. I don't recall that.
12 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 278 which
13 would be in tab 1 of the testimony binder.
14 MR. ROSENTHAL: Page 278?
15 MR. BURSTEIN: Yes.
16 Q. Were you asked this question and
17 did you give this answer at 278, line 2? "Did
18 you say anything or did Bernard say anything in
19 response to him about Trinidad?
20 "Answer: Yes. He said you know we
21 have got this mandatory to do. We have got a
22 lot of things we are working on right now. We
23 have the mandatory to do. What are you going to
24 do about that, and you know we get that out of
25 the way. Let's talk about it, and King pressed
2 further and said, well, you know, let's make
3 this fight happen" referring to Trinidad.
4 Does that refresh your recollection
5 that at the meeting in June Mr. King was taking
6 the position that the Trinidad fight should be
7 pursued before the mandatory?
8 A. It refreshes my recollection to the
9 exact opposite that we are discussing prior to
10 this time we discussed Trinidad, the mandatory,
11 where the mandatory was going to take place, the
12 circumstances of the mandatory and the money.
13 Q. I think that was a yes-or-no
15 THE CHAIRMAN: He said that it refreshes
16 his recollection to something else entirely. I
17 think you can stop there.
18 Q. But isn't it a fact that you
19 testified just a number of months ago that at
20 this meeting Bernard Hopkins said we should get
21 the mandatory out of the way and it was Mr. King
22 that said we should make this fight, meaning the
23 Trinidad fight, happen?
24 A. Did I say that in here?
25 Q. Did you testify to that?
2 A. I testified to exactly what it says
3 here, but that is not inconsistent with what I
4 am saying now .
5 MR. BURSTEIN: I move to strike after
6 that is not consistent.
7 Q. Did you testify --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Overruled.
9 Q. Is this an accurate transcription
10 of your testimony on November 22, 2004?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you telling the truth when you
13 testified under oath on November 22, 2004?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On July 2, you wrote to Mr.
16 Sulaiman and expressly requested a purse bid if
17 DKP and AB Stars could not reach a deal for the
18 WBC mandatory, didn't you?
19 A. Is there a letter?
20 Q. Do you recall it or not?
21 A. I don't recall specifically the
23 Q. Take a look at Exhibit A R, the
24 second paragraph. Have you had a chance to read
25 the second paragraph?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me know when you are done.
4 A. I have read the second paragraph.
5 Q. Does this refresh your recollection
6 that on July 2 you wrote to Mr. Sulaiman and
7 said that Mr. Hopkins wanted the mandatory bout
8 to take place as soon as possible and that the
9 WBC should order a purse bid if DKP and AB Stars
10 could not come to terms for a bout in a
11 relatively short amount of time?
12 A. I wrote that in the letter.
13 Q. Is your recollection refreshed that
14 you wrote that in the letter?
15 A. I just said that.
16 Q. No, you just said you wrote it in
17 the letter. Is your recollection refreshed that
18 you wrote that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A day later if you look at Exhibit
21 A S, Mr. Sulaiman wrote you back. If you go to
22 the third to last paragraph --
23 JUDGE SCHACKMAN: Page 2 .
24 MR. BURSTEIN: Page 2 on Exhibit A S.
25 Q. He concurred with your request. Do
2 you see that?
3 A. Which paragraph?
4 Q. The third paragraph from the
6 A. He says we concur with your
8 Q. So, as of July 2 and July 3, am I
9 correct that it was Bernard Hopkins' position
10 that, if DKP and AB Stars could not get a deal
11 done, Bernard Hopkins intended to fight his WBC
12 mandatory pursuant to a purse bid regardless of
13 what Don King wanted and regardless of whether
14 or not Don King was the ultimate promoter of the
16 A. That is false.
17 Q. You had asked for a purse bid if
18 they couldn't agree, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Mr. Hopkins had said he was willing
21 to fight the WBC mandatory pursuant to a purse
22 bid, correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. You also said that, if Don King and
25 AB Stars didn't get a deal done, you wanted the
2 purse bid to go forward, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you understood that, once the
5 purse bid went forward, Don King might not end
6 up being the promoter of the bout, correct?
7 A. If he didn't win the purse bid.
8 Q. He might not end up being the
9 promoter of the bout, is that correct, yes or
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. So, what you were saying when you
13 said I want Mr. -- Mr. Hopkins wants a purse
14 bid, you were saying we want to go forward with
15 the Hakkar bout, even if DKP and AB Stars cannot
16 get a deal done? Weren't you saying that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were also saying that we
19 want this to go forward, even if a deal can't be
20 done, knowing -- withdrawn.
21 You were also saying that we want
22 this fight to go forward, if a deal can't be
23 done, even if Don King doesn't want the deal
24 taking place and even if it ends up having to be
25 promoted by different promoter?
2 A. That is false.
3 Q. You were saying that a purse bid
4 certainly contemplated -- let me see if I can do
5 it a different way. You were certainly saying
6 that you were prepared to go forward with the
7 fight even if Don King did not end up being the
8 promoter of the bout?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And you were prepared to go forward
11 with the bout even if Don King had chosen not to
12 bid, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So that, if Don King had decided he
15 didn't want to go forward with the bout, you
16 were still prepared to go forward with it?
17 A. Or whomever won the purse bid,
18 but --
19 MR. BURSTEIN: Move to strike.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: You have answered the
22 Q. In fact, before you had ever been
23 sent a contract from Don King for either Betare
24 or Hakkar, you had requested a purse bid from
25 the WBC, isn't that correct?
2 A. Before I was ever sent a written
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. But not before we discussed it.
6 Q. Before you were ever sent a written
7 contract for Betare or Hakkar, you had requested
8 a WBC purse bid in the event that a deal could
9 not get done with DKP for the WBC mandatory, yes
10 or no?
11 A. I believe that I received a written
12 contract sometime in July, so, if that is the
13 case, then, yes.
14 Q. O.K. Now, with respect to Mr.
15 Joppy, you will agree that between the Hakkar
16 bout which took place at the very end of March
17 2003, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And April 29, 2003, DKP never came
20 to you and said we want Mr. Hopkins to fight Mr.
21 Joppy as the next opponent?
22 A. He didn't come to us with any
24 Q. So the answer is he never came
25 forward to you -- came to you during that time
2 period and said we want Joppy to be the next
4 A. What was the end date?
5 Q. April 29, 2003.
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Let's look at Exhibit C K, a letter
8 you sent as of May 1.
9 A. It is not there.
10 MR. OLIN: We don't have it.
11 MR. BURSTEIN: It is not in yours?
12 MR. OLIN: No.
13 Q. As of May 1, 2003, if you look at
14 the first few sentences of this letter, you had
15 heard nothing from Mr. King about plans for
16 Bernard's future bouts?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So certainly as of May 1, 2003, Mr.
19 King had not come to you and said we want
20 William Joppy to be the next bout?
21 A. He did not.
22 Q. Two days earlier in fact you had
23 demanded a purse bid from the WBA, hadn't you?
24 A. I don't know. Do you have the
2 Q. Let's look at Exhibit C I. On
3 April 29, you asked that the WBA schedule a
4 purse bid within the next two weeks, didn't you?
5 A. Yes. I did.
6 Q. In fact, on May 1 you told DKP that
7 you were going to do that. In fact you enclosed
8 your April 29 letter or that you had done that?
9 A. Is there a letter that you were
10 going to refer me to?
11 Q. C K.
12 A. What was the question?
13 Q. On May 1 you told DKP that you were
14 requesting a purse bid of the IBF? End of the
15 first paragraph. Do you see where you wrote,
16 since you obviously do not intend so, we have
17 asked the WBA to call for an immediate purse
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, if you look at Exhibit C H and
21 although this is dated April 29, I think you
22 testified on direct looking at the fax header
23 that the real date of this letter was about June
25 A. Yes.
2 Q. That after the Toney bid, the Toney
3 bout fell apart, you asked again for an
4 immediate purse bid. Correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And what you were saying and asking
7 for an immediate purse bid, were you not, was
8 that Bernard Hopkins was planning on fighting
9 William Joppy as his next fight for any promoter
10 who would win a purse bid?
11 A. I can't accept that entire
12 statement, because you said his next fight and
13 he was always willing to make alternative plans
14 for the mandatories if Mr. King came up with an
15 alternative plan.
16 Q. But you understood that once the
17 purse bid was held that if Mr. Hopkins wanted to
18 keep his WBA belt he would have to fight the
20 A. No, that is not the case.
21 Q. You didn't understand that?
22 A. No, that is not the case. I have
23 an understanding to the contrary if you would
24 like to hear it.
25 Q. Now --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: You will have a chance on
4 THE WITNESS: Sure.
5 Q. But you certainly made clear in
6 this letter on June 13 that, absent DKP coming
7 up with some other alternative, Bernard Hopkins
8 was going to fight that purse bid bout
9 regardless of what DKP wanted and for any
10 promoter who won a purse bid?
11 A. I can't accept that entire
13 Q. Was Bernard Hopkins saying that if
14 there was no alternative available given to him
15 by HBO he was going to fight Joppy pursuant to a
16 purse bid? Let me rephrase that. That was a
17 terrible question.
18 On June 13 when you wrote this
19 letter, were you not saying, according to you,
20 that, if Don King did not provide Bernard
21 Hopkins with another alternative, Bernard
22 Hopkins was going to fight his WBA mandatory
23 pursuant to a purse bid?
24 A. No, I wasn't saying all of that at
2 Q. You weren't?
3 A. No, what I was doing was asking as
4 I said in the letter for a purse bid to take
6 Q. Let's play this out. You were
7 asking for a purse bid to be held, right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. In asking for the purse bid to be
10 held, are you saying that Bernard Hopkins had no
11 intention with going forward with the purse bid?
12 A. He had --
13 Q. Yes or no.
14 A. I can't say yes or no.
15 Q. Would he have gone forward with the
16 purse bid if in the absence of Don King making
17 another offer that was more attractive to him?
18 A. I am speculating, but I believe so,
19 yes. That was the intent.
20 Q. That was the intent at the time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So as of the time you wrote this
23 letter, it was Bernard Hopkins' intent in the
24 absence of DKP providing a more attractive
25 opportunity to go forward with the Joppy bout
2 pursuant to a purse bid, right?
3 A. In the absence of Mr. King
4 providing any alternative, yes. He would have
5 gone forward.
6 Q. And he would have done so
7 regardless of Mr. King's wishes, right?
8 A. Mr. King's wishes were consonant
9 with his at the time with respect to this bout.
10 Q. He would have -- even if Don King
11 didn't want the bout to go forward, he would
12 have gone forward with the purse bid and would
13 have fought the bout for a promoter other than
14 Mr. King, correct?
15 MR. OLIN: Objection. Calls for
16 speculation, because that is not the fact.
17 A. That is not the fact .
18 THE CHAIRMAN: O.K. I understand.
19 Q. Now with respect to Carl Daniels,
20 it is my understanding that you believe that Don
21 King Productions' initial offer for that fight
22 was less than 1.5?
23 A. My recollection was that it was
24 less than 1.5.
25 Q. But you have no specific
2 recollection of what that offer was?
3 A. I do not.
4 Q. In your deposition you testified
5 that you had no recollection even about who you
6 negotiated with for the Daniels fight and that
7 the only numbers that stood out in your mind
8 with respect to that negotiation were the
9 numbers of $1.5 million and $1.7 million.
10 A. Could you show me where I said
12 Q. Do you recall whether or not you so
14 A. I don't recall that.
15 Q. Well, is it true that you have no
16 recollection of anyone who you discussed that
17 fight with?
18 A. I have a recollection of speaking
19 to Mr. DiBella about it, and I have a
20 recollection of speaking to Mr. King about it.
21 Q. Is it true that the opening numbers
22 that stand out in your mind in connection with
23 that negotiation were $1.5 million and $1.7
25 A. I don't recall that.
2 Q. Take a look in the book I guess it
3 is tab 7, page 21.
4 MR. OLIN: This is his deposition, Judd?
5 MR. BURSTEIN: This is his deposition.
6 Tell me when you have it.
7 A. I have the page.
8 Q. Line 20. Were you asked these
9 questions and did you give these answers: "Now
10 there came a time when there were negotiations
11 between the Hopkins side and the King side for
12 the Hopkins purse for the Daniels fight?
13 "Answer: There were discussions.
14 I can't remember who the discussions were
15 between, who I had discussions with. Again, I
16 can only give firsthand information about what I
17 did, and I can't remember with whom I had
18 discussions. I believe Lou DiBella was involved
19 at some point in time. I believe that at some
20 time or another offers were communicated and an
21 offer was communicated to me or a purse amount
22 was communicated to me for the bout.
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