Burstein questions Arnold Joseph
 MR. BURSTEIN: Should we start with Mr.
  17     Joseph, then?
  18            THE CHAIRMAN: Please.
  19            MR. OLIN: I do want to remind the panel
  20     and Mr. Burstein that we promised last time--
  21     Mr. Joseph has been on and off the stand about
  22     half a dozen times and interrupted for various
  23     witnesses, but the last time Mr. Burstein
  24     promised he had 15 or 20 minutes left with Mr.
  25     Joseph .
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                                                               24
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   2            MR. BURSTEIN: That is the problem with
   3     having a delay of three or four months. I can't
   4     promise you 15 or 20 minutes.
   5            MR. OLIN: He has already had many, many
   6     hours with Mr. Joseph .
   7            MR. BURSTEIN: We will be done in plenty
   8     of time. All we are looking for is the truth .
   9            THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go forward. Mr.
  10     Joseph, you remain under oath from your prior
  11     testimony. Are you aware of that?
  12            THE WITNESS: I understand that.
  13            (Arnold C. Joseph resumes previously
  14     sworn)
  15     BY MR. BURSTEIN:
  16            Q.   Mr. Joseph, am I correct between
  17     the Daniels fight in February 2002 and May 2002
  18     DKP never wrote you or Mr. Hopkins a letter
  19     designating Betare or Hakkar as the opponent DKP
  20     wanted Bernard Hopkins to fight next?
  21            A.   What were the dates?
  22            Q.   Between February 2002 and May 2002.
  23            A.   I don't recall.
  24            Q.   Certainly-- if you take a look at
  25     Exhibit 8-K in your book, this is a letter that
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                                                               25
   1
   2     you sent Mr. King on or about May 13, 2002. If
   3     you look at the second paragraph, certainly as
   4     of May 2002, it was your understanding that DKP
   5     had been pushing, as you called it, the wait for
   6     Roy Jones and HBO plan?
   7            A.   Is there a question?
   8            Q.   Is that correct? Is that what you
   9     were saying as of May 13?
  10            A.   I can read the letter. I just
  11     restate what is in the letter.
  12            Q.   I am asking you not whether you can
  13     read the letter. Is that a letter you sent in
  14     which you said that as of May 13, Don King
  15     Productions had been pursuing the wait for Roy
  16     Jones and HBO plan?
  17            A.   I am reading the letter .
  18            MR. BURSTEIN: Could I respectfully, I
  19     think it is a simple yes-or-no question.
  20            THE WITNESS: I can't answer the question
  21     unless I read the letter .
  22            THE CHAIRMAN: He says is this a letter
  23     in which you stated what it says there and is
  24     that your position. That is really what he is
  25     asking.
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                                                               26
   1
   2            THE WITNESS: To that I can say yes.
   3     There was something else he said.
   4            Q.   Even putting aside the letters, you
   5     never had a conversation or Mr. Hopkins never
   6     had a conversation with anyone at DKP between
   7     February 2 and at least May 21, 2002 in which
   8     you were told that DKP wanted the WBC mandatory
   9     to go forward as Bernard Hopkins's next fight?
  10            A.   I don't recall. I recall having
  11     conversations with him about whether or not the
  12     mandatory was necessary and him --
  13            MR. BURSTEIN: I move to strike. I just
  14     asked a specific question as to whether or not
  15     you were told this, not what everyone else was
  16     told.
  17            THE CHAIRMAN: You are right. Just stick
  18     with what he is asking.
  19            A.   I don't recall.
  20            Q.   Take a look at Exhibit A M. This
  21     is a letter written by Mr. Hopkins on May 21,
  22     2002, correct?
  23            A.   Yes.
  24            Q.   You received a copy of this?
  25            A.   Yes.
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                                                               27
   1
   2            Q.   You see that Mr. Hopkins wrote that
   3     DKP had not provided us with any information
   4     about my WBC mandatory. Do you see that?
   5            A.   I see that.
   6            Q.   Do you recall seeing this letter at
   7     or about the time it was sent since you are a CC
   8     on it?
   9            A.   Yes.
  10            Q.   Does that refresh your recollection
  11     that as of at least May 21 DKP had not provided
  12     you with any information concerning the WBC
  13     mandatory?
  14            A.   No.
  15            Q.   Is there anything that would
  16     refresh your recollection as of whether as of
  17     May 21 DKP had provided you any information
  18     about your mandatory?
  19            A.   I'm not sure.
  20            Q.   As of May 23, if you look at
  21     Exhibit A N, you wrote to Mr. Sulaiman
  22     expressing Mr. Hopkins' readiness to fight his
  23     mandatory, correct?
  24            A.   Yes.
  25            Q.   And between May 23 and July 2, do
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                                                               28
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   2     you recall if DKP ever told you that it wanted
   3     Bernard Hopkins to fight the WBC mandatory
   4     before fighting Trinidad?
   5            A.   Yes, definitely.
   6            Q.   Isn't it a fact that at the
   7     Atlantic City meeting that you had in June 2002
   8     it was according to you Bernard Hopkins who
   9     asked about fighting the mandatory and it was
  10     Don King who said let's do Trinidad first?
  11            A.   I don't recall that.
  12            Q.   Take a look at Exhibit 278 which
  13     would be in tab 1 of the testimony binder.
  14            MR. ROSENTHAL: Page 278?
  15            MR. BURSTEIN: Yes.
  16            Q.   Were you asked this question and
  17     did you give this answer at 278, line 2? "Did
  18     you say anything or did Bernard say anything in
  19     response to him about Trinidad?
  20                  "Answer: Yes. He said you know we
  21     have got this mandatory to do. We have got a
  22     lot of things we are working on right now. We
  23     have the mandatory to do. What are you going to
  24     do about that, and you know we get that out of
  25     the way. Let's talk about it, and King pressed
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                                                               29
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   2     further and said, well, you know, let's make
   3     this fight happen" referring to Trinidad.
   4                  Does that refresh your recollection
   5     that at the meeting in June Mr. King was taking
   6     the position that the Trinidad fight should be
   7     pursued before the mandatory?
   8            A.   It refreshes my recollection to the
   9     exact opposite that we are discussing prior to
  10     this time we discussed Trinidad, the mandatory,
  11     where the mandatory was going to take place, the
  12     circumstances of the mandatory and the money.
  13            Q.   I think that was a yes-or-no
  14     question.
  15            THE CHAIRMAN: He said that it refreshes
  16     his recollection to something else entirely. I
  17     think you can stop there.
  18            Q.   But isn't it a fact that you
  19     testified just a number of months ago that at
  20     this meeting Bernard Hopkins said we should get
  21     the mandatory out of the way and it was Mr. King
  22     that said we should make this fight, meaning the
  23     Trinidad fight, happen?
  24            A.   Did I say that in here?
  25            Q.   Did you testify to that?
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   2            A.   I testified to exactly what it says
   3     here, but that is not inconsistent with what I
   4     am saying now .
   5            MR. BURSTEIN: I move to strike after
   6     that is not consistent.
   7            Q.   Did you testify --
   8            THE CHAIRMAN: Overruled.
   9            Q.   Is this an accurate transcription
  10     of your testimony on November 22, 2004?
  11            A.   Yes.
  12            Q.   Were you telling the truth when you
  13     testified under oath on November 22, 2004?
  14            A.   Yes.
  15            Q.   On July 2, you wrote to Mr.
  16     Sulaiman and expressly requested a purse bid if
  17     DKP and AB Stars could not reach a deal for the
  18     WBC mandatory, didn't you?
  19            A.   Is there a letter?
  20            Q.   Do you recall it or not?
  21            A.   I don't recall specifically the
  22     date.
  23            Q.   Take a look at Exhibit A R, the
  24     second paragraph. Have you had a chance to read
  25     the second paragraph?
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   1
   2            A.   No.
   3            Q.   Let me know when you are done.
   4            A.   I have read the second paragraph.
   5            Q.   Does this refresh your recollection
   6     that on July 2 you wrote to Mr. Sulaiman and
   7     said that Mr. Hopkins wanted the mandatory bout
   8     to take place as soon as possible and that the
   9     WBC should order a purse bid if DKP and AB Stars
  10     could not come to terms for a bout in a
  11     relatively short amount of time?
  12            A.   I wrote that in the letter.
  13            Q.   Is your recollection refreshed that
  14     you wrote that in the letter?
  15            A.   I just said that.
  16            Q.   No, you just said you wrote it in
  17     the letter. Is your recollection refreshed that
  18     you wrote that?
  19            A.   Yes.
  20            Q.   A day later if you look at Exhibit
  21     A S, Mr. Sulaiman wrote you back. If you go to
  22     the third to last paragraph --
  23            JUDGE SCHACKMAN: Page 2 .
  24            MR. BURSTEIN: Page 2 on Exhibit A S.
  25            Q.   He concurred with your request. Do
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                                                               32
   1
   2     you see that?
   3            A.   Which paragraph?
   4            Q.   The third paragraph from the
   5     bottom.
   6            A.   He says we concur with your
   7     request.
   8            Q.   So, as of July 2 and July 3, am I
   9     correct that it was Bernard Hopkins' position
  10     that, if DKP and AB Stars could not get a deal
  11     done, Bernard Hopkins intended to fight his WBC
  12     mandatory pursuant to a purse bid regardless of
  13     what Don King wanted and regardless of whether
  14     or not Don King was the ultimate promoter of the
  15     fight?
  16            A.   That is false.
  17            Q.   You had asked for a purse bid if
  18     they couldn't agree, correct?
  19            A.   Correct.
  20            Q.   Mr. Hopkins had said he was willing
  21     to fight the WBC mandatory pursuant to a purse
  22     bid, correct?
  23            A.   That's correct.
  24            Q.   You also said that, if Don King and
  25     AB Stars didn't get a deal done, you wanted the
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                                                               33
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   2     purse bid to go forward, correct?
   3            A.   Yes.
   4            Q.   And you understood that, once the
   5     purse bid went forward, Don King might not end
   6     up being the promoter of the bout, correct?
   7            A.   If he didn't win the purse bid.
   8            Q.   He might not end up being the
   9     promoter of the bout, is that correct, yes or
  10     no?
  11            A.   That's correct.
  12            Q.   So, what you were saying when you
  13     said I want Mr. -- Mr. Hopkins wants a purse
  14     bid, you were saying we want to go forward with
  15     the Hakkar bout, even if DKP and AB Stars cannot
  16     get a deal done? Weren't you saying that?
  17            A.   Yes.
  18            Q.   And you were also saying that we
  19     want this to go forward, even if a deal can't be
  20     done, knowing -- withdrawn.
  21                  You were also saying that we want
  22     this fight to go forward, if a deal can't be
  23     done, even if Don King doesn't want the deal
  24     taking place and even if it ends up having to be
  25     promoted by different promoter?
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   1
   2            A.   That is false.
   3            Q.   You were saying that a purse bid
   4     certainly contemplated -- let me see if I can do
   5     it a different way. You were certainly saying
   6     that you were prepared to go forward with the
   7     fight even if Don King did not end up being the
   8     promoter of the bout?
   9            A.   That's correct.
  10            Q.   And you were prepared to go forward
  11     with the bout even if Don King had chosen not to
  12     bid, correct?
  13            A.   Yes.
  14            Q.   So that, if Don King had decided he
  15     didn't want to go forward with the bout, you
  16     were still prepared to go forward with it?
  17            A.   Or whomever won the purse bid,
  18     but --
  19            MR. BURSTEIN: Move to strike.
  20            THE CHAIRMAN: You have answered the
  21     question.
  22            Q.   In fact, before you had ever been
  23     sent a contract from Don King for either Betare
  24     or Hakkar, you had requested a purse bid from
  25     the WBC, isn't that correct?
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                                                               35
   1
   2            A.   Before I was ever sent a written
   3     contract.
   4            Q.   Yes.
   5            A.   But not before we discussed it.
   6            Q.   Before you were ever sent a written
   7     contract for Betare or Hakkar, you had requested
   8     a WBC purse bid in the event that a deal could
   9     not get done with DKP for the WBC mandatory, yes
  10     or no?
  11            A.   I believe that I received a written
  12     contract sometime in July, so, if that is the
  13     case, then, yes.
  14            Q.   O.K. Now, with respect to Mr.
  15     Joppy, you will agree that between the Hakkar
  16     bout which took place at the very end of March
  17     2003, correct?
  18            A.   Yes.
  19            Q.   And April 29, 2003, DKP never came
  20     to you and said we want Mr. Hopkins to fight Mr.
  21     Joppy as the next opponent?
  22            A.   He didn't come to us with any
  23     opponent.
  24            Q.   So the answer is he never came
  25     forward to you -- came to you during that time
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                                                               36
   1
   2     period and said we want Joppy to be the next
   3     opponent?
   4            A.   What was the end date?
   5            Q.   April 29, 2003.
   6            A.   I don't recall.
   7            Q.   Let's look at Exhibit C K, a letter
   8     you sent as of May 1.
   9            A.   It is not there.
  10            MR. OLIN: We don't have it.
  11            MR. BURSTEIN: It is not in yours?
  12            MR. OLIN: No.
  13            Q.   As of May 1, 2003, if you look at
  14     the first few sentences of this letter, you had
  15     heard nothing from Mr. King about plans for
  16     Bernard's future bouts?
  17            A.   That's correct.
  18            Q.   So certainly as of May 1, 2003, Mr.
  19     King had not come to you and said we want
  20     William Joppy to be the next bout?
  21            A.   He did not.
  22            Q.   Two days earlier in fact you had
  23     demanded a purse bid from the WBA, hadn't you?
  24            A.   I don't know. Do you have the
  25     document?
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                                                               37
   1
   2            Q.   Let's look at Exhibit C I. On
   3     April 29, you asked that the WBA schedule a
   4     purse bid within the next two weeks, didn't you?
   5            A.   Yes. I did.
   6            Q.   In fact, on May 1 you told DKP that
   7     you were going to do that. In fact you enclosed
   8     your April 29 letter or that you had done that?
   9            A.   Is there a letter that you were
  10     going to refer me to?
  11            Q.   C K.
  12            A.   What was the question?
  13            Q.   On May 1 you told DKP that you were
  14     requesting a purse bid of the IBF? End of the
  15     first paragraph. Do you see where you wrote,
  16     since you obviously do not intend so, we have
  17     asked the WBA to call for an immediate purse
  18     bid?
  19            A.   Yes.
  20            Q.   Now, if you look at Exhibit C H and
  21     although this is dated April 29, I think you
  22     testified on direct looking at the fax header
  23     that the real date of this letter was about June
  24     13.
  25            A.   Yes.
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                                                               38
   1
   2            Q.   That after the Toney bid, the Toney
   3     bout fell apart, you asked again for an
   4     immediate purse bid. Correct?
   5            A.   That's correct.
   6            Q.   And what you were saying and asking
   7     for an immediate purse bid, were you not, was
   8     that Bernard Hopkins was planning on fighting
   9     William Joppy as his next fight for any promoter
  10     who would win a purse bid?
  11            A.   I can't accept that entire
  12     statement, because you said his next fight and
  13     he was always willing to make alternative plans
  14     for the mandatories if Mr. King came up with an
  15     alternative plan.
  16            Q.   But you understood that once the
  17     purse bid was held that if Mr. Hopkins wanted to
  18     keep his WBA belt he would have to fight the
  19     fight?
  20            A.   No, that is not the case.
  21            Q.   You didn't understand that?
  22            A.   No, that is not the case. I have
  23     an understanding to the contrary if you would
  24     like to hear it.
  25            Q.   Now --
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                                                               39
   1
   2            THE CHAIRMAN: You will have a chance on
   3     redirect.
   4            THE WITNESS: Sure.
   5            Q.   But you certainly made clear in
   6     this letter on June 13 that, absent DKP coming
   7     up with some other alternative, Bernard Hopkins
   8     was going to fight that purse bid bout
   9     regardless of what DKP wanted and for any
  10     promoter who won a purse bid?
  11            A.   I can't accept that entire
  12     question.
  13            Q.   Was Bernard Hopkins saying that if
  14     there was no alternative available given to him
  15     by HBO he was going to fight Joppy pursuant to a
  16     purse bid? Let me rephrase that. That was a
  17     terrible question.
  18                  On June 13 when you wrote this
  19     letter, were you not saying, according to you,
  20     that, if Don King did not provide Bernard
  21     Hopkins with another alternative, Bernard
  22     Hopkins was going to fight his WBA mandatory
  23     pursuant to a purse bid?
  24            A.   No, I wasn't saying all of that at
  25     all.
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                                                               40
   1
   2            Q.   You weren't?
   3            A.   No, what I was doing was asking as
   4     I said in the letter for a purse bid to take
   5     place.
   6            Q.   Let's play this out. You were
   7     asking for a purse bid to be held, right?
   8            A.   That's correct.
   9            Q.   In asking for the purse bid to be
  10     held, are you saying that Bernard Hopkins had no
  11     intention with going forward with the purse bid?
  12            A.   He had --
  13            Q.   Yes or no.
  14            A.   I can't say yes or no.
  15            Q.   Would he have gone forward with the
  16     purse bid if in the absence of Don King making
  17     another offer that was more attractive to him?
  18            A.   I am speculating, but I believe so,
  19     yes. That was the intent.
  20            Q.   That was the intent at the time?
  21            A.   Yes.
  22            Q.   So as of the time you wrote this
  23     letter, it was Bernard Hopkins' intent in the
  24     absence of DKP providing a more attractive
  25     opportunity to go forward with the Joppy bout
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                                                               41
   1
   2     pursuant to a purse bid, right?
   3            A.   In the absence of Mr. King
   4     providing any alternative, yes. He would have
   5     gone forward.
   6            Q.   And he would have done so
   7     regardless of Mr. King's wishes, right?
   8            A.   Mr. King's wishes were consonant
   9     with his at the time with respect to this bout.
  10            Q.   He would have -- even if Don King
  11     didn't want the bout to go forward, he would
  12     have gone forward with the purse bid and would
  13     have fought the bout for a promoter other than
  14     Mr. King, correct?
  15            MR. OLIN: Objection. Calls for
  16     speculation, because that is not the fact.
  17            A.   That is not the fact .
  18            THE CHAIRMAN: O.K. I understand.
  19            Q.   Now with respect to Carl Daniels,
  20     it is my understanding that you believe that Don
  21     King Productions' initial offer for that fight
  22     was less than 1.5?
  23            A.   My recollection was that it was
  24     less than 1.5.
  25            Q.   But you have no specific
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                                                               42
   1
   2     recollection of what that offer was?
   3            A.   I do not.
   4            Q.   In your deposition you testified
   5     that you had no recollection even about who you
   6     negotiated with for the Daniels fight and that
   7     the only numbers that stood out in your mind
   8     with respect to that negotiation were the
   9     numbers of $1.5 million and $1.7 million.
  10            A.   Could you show me where I said
  11     that?
  12            Q.   Do you recall whether or not you so
  13     testified?
  14            A.   I don't recall that.
  15            Q.   Well, is it true that you have no
  16     recollection of anyone who you discussed that
  17     fight with?
  18            A.   I have a recollection of speaking
  19     to Mr. DiBella about it, and I have a
  20     recollection of speaking to Mr. King about it.
  21            Q.   Is it true that the opening numbers
  22     that stand out in your mind in connection with
  23     that negotiation were $1.5 million and $1.7
  24     million?
  25            A.   I don't recall that.
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                                                               43
   1
   2            Q.   Take a look in the book I guess it
   3     is tab 7, page 21.
   4            MR. OLIN: This is his deposition, Judd?
   5            MR. BURSTEIN: This is his deposition.
   6     Tell me when you have it.
   7            A.   I have the page.
   8            Q.   Line 20. Were you asked these
   9     questions and did you give these answers: "Now
  10     there came a time when there were negotiations
  11     between the Hopkins side and the King side for
  12     the Hopkins purse for the Daniels fight?
  13                  "Answer: There were discussions.
  14     I can't remember who the discussions were
  15     between, who I had discussions with. Again, I
  16     can only give firsthand information about what I
  17     did, and I can't remember with whom I had
  18     discussions. I believe Lou DiBella was involved
  19     at some point in time. I believe that at some
  20     time or another offers were communicated and an
  21     offer was communicated to me or a purse amount
  22     was communicated to me for the bout.
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