hello mr. breadman, i can't help to think how sometimes karma is a bitch, i remember seen de la hoya getting the shit beat out of him unmercifully and thinking to my self about 10 years earlier when he did the same thing to chavez, i guess that's the way boxing goes, a young fighter comes into the scene and builts a name by beating old fighters on their way out, then the young fighter gets old and gets fed to the new hot prospect trying to build a name, i never stops.....anyways, who would you pick between prime chavez versus prime de la hoya at 135 or 140?  also, do you see paul williams maybe in 2 or 3 years moving up to super middleweight and fighting someone like abraham? i think that williams would get murdered, he opens up his defense too much.

Bread’s Response: I have no idea whats up with Pwill or where he will be in 2 years. I don’t mean that as an insult either I just don’t know. I could probably answer that question better a few months from now. What I would suggest for him, is to get to the lowest weight he can get to without compromising his ability which is probably 154 and clean up. I would also suggest a strategist or boxing advisor to go ALONG with his current trainer. No disrespect to George Peterson but Paul fights hard not smart. He should watch footage of Calzaghe and Jose Luis Castillo over and over. And he will see how to effectively pressure a man and just not hope he gets tired because you are fighting hard. The best I ever saw Oscar ,was at 140 the night he beat Chavez in their 1st fight. Oscar should have stayed at 140 a year or two longer. He would have created a great legacy for himself there. His body was sleek, look at his physique the night he fought Chavez at 140. He was also maturing into a well rounded boxer puncher killer. He gave up his physicality at 147. That was a jump of 4 weight classes in 3 years. I know Chavez is regarded along with Aaron Pryor as the best 140 pounders ever but I would take Oscar on a decision. I think Chavez would come on late but Oscar’s jab and that half uppercut half hook was ridiculous back then. Plus he stayed on his toes and kept a great rhythm at that time. Oscar in a upset 7-5.
 
 
Hey Bread, 'The Latin Snake' was NEVER in Vernon's class! Vernon and Antonio Tarver SQUANDERED their victories over two HOF fighters (Shane Mosley, Roy Jones) and didn't maximize their CAREERS. The 2 Mayorga loses hurt Vernon bad. You could be right that Vernon would've been able to get off on Floyd, but I doubt it. Everyone likes to dismiss or minimize Floyd's victory over Diego Corrales (RIP) who was the Thomas Hearns of Floyd's era and 130lb weight division. Everybody speaks of Corrales' legal problems outside the ring as reasons why Corrales lost to Mayweather, I say Mayweather would've BEAT Corrales ANYWAY. BTW Mayweather has risen to the occassion when he was facing similar legal problems!! Corrales was headed for a HOF career before tragedy struck. Corrales a 6'0" fighter with welterweight power was similar to Vernon in his fight style, except that as Vernon got older after the shoulder surgeries he tended to box more than mix it up, while Corrales was BASICALLY shot after the GREATEST lightweight fight of all time against JL Castillo and the followup weightgate rematch with Castillo. Corrales needed money badly and had to fight on when he should've taken at least a year off after those 2 fights to recover his body. Floyd beat Carlos Baldomir MUCH MUCH cleaner than Vernon did, Vernon took too many unnecessary shots that he should'nt have from Baldi. I see Allan Green as being similar to Vernon Forrest, my SON loves Green's demeanor and GAME and thinks Green will BEAT Ward. Green doesn't have the seasoning nor ACUTE focus he needs to beat Andre Ward, his fight against Tarvis Simms is a testament to this assessment, Donny McCrary also comes to mind. Green depends too much on his POWER and will resort to trying to land the BOMB when nothing else works against Ward leaving openings for Ward to take advantage of. Green got a BAD draw for his opening matchup in the Super 6 Tourney replacing Jermain Taylor, an opening round matchup against Carl Froch or even Abraham would've been better for Allan. But, Allan thinks that Abraham and Froch are the fighters to beat so IMHO he is SOMEWHAT dissmissing Andre Ward, to his own detriment!! Froch and Abraham are BOTH punching BAGS, with Froch being right in your face and Abraham a little bit deceptive while in your face.

Bread’s Response:Ok where do I start? Yes you are right Vernon and Tarver are very similar in not capitalizing on their victories over Mosley and Jones. And good point about Floyd doing his thing when he was facing legal problems. I hardly ever make excuses for fighters even if there is one. However I do believe that Diego should not have fought Floyd but Floyd is the better fighter and that’s that. Here is where we disagree. I get you saying that Diego was the Thomas Hearns of his era especially at 130lb. But that comment has to be elaborated on. RIP Diego but Hearns was a much better fighter. In every facet. Hearns didn’t have the best chin but Diego got knocked down like 14 times in his career and the only big puncher that dropped him was Castillo.More importantly there is a myth about Corrales that takes the herd theory. The herd theory is when everyone assumes something to be the truth, accepts it to be the truth without it being true and RUNS with it. Dieogo Corrales does not have long arms. He is tall but not rangey. He is actually a pressure fighter not a boxer puncher stalker. Corrales consistently got outboxed from the outside by shorter fighters, Roberto Garcia, Casamayor, Freitas, Castillo and Mayweather. Max Kellerman pointed this out and he was right. Corrales fought nothing like Forrest. Forrest was much smarter, jabbed much more and was no where as chinny. Forrest was more of a poor mans Tommy Hearns. Corrales to me fought like a stand up Mexican pressure fighter.A mixture of Erik Morales and Chavez. Allan Green will have to fight the fight of his life to beat Andre Ward. Andre Ward has potential HOF qualities. But guess what Ward does not run much, he turns fighters constantly and has unreal ring generalship. Him laying on the inside can cost him against Allan. Remember me saying this watch the tapes of Michael Spinks v Marvin Johnson I smell a replay. Abraham is a punching bag that hits back lmao. And you know what I think I have been a little hard on Froch. It must be something that he is doing that throws off more athletic fighters who by looking at them you say they beat him easy. Jean Pascal, JT and although I thought Dirrell won, Froch through Andre off.

 
 
Curious…if Klitschko and Lewis had their rematch, who would have won?
I’ll tell you this, for my money, I’ve yet to see someone come out of a “loss” being so much better a fighter. I’m not a big fan of his style or anything like that—he’s not “must see TV”, but if you really think about it, Klitschko before-and-after Lennox Lewis are two totally different fighters. In all reality, there’s very few fighters in history I’d pick to beat Vitali, and I mean, would anyone really be a lock to beat this guy? He’s strong, big, very coordinated for such a big man, and has a pretty decent chin, along with a good defense. Even Chris Byrd, who lost to a monster like Ike Ibeabuchi said the Klitschko’s are some murderous punchers. Take him on his best day, I’d have to say that I’d pick him over a young George Foreman, not to mention a lot of past, tough, champions… I mean just going back…I’d pick him over Evander, probably over a prime Larry Holmes (another underrated great), I’d pick him to beat Bowe, and I might even have a hard time seeing a 5’10” prime Mike Tyson really having his way with this guy. I feel kinda sick in the head giving this guy this much props, but realistically—can you see any of these guys taking it to him, assuming everyone’s on their best night? What’s your opinion? Keep in mind that he did miss 4 good years of his prime due to injuries, and we just may see him grow old overnight, being at the age he’s at…but he’s a very underrated Champ in my opinion, nonetheless Paul Zbair

Bread’s Response: Wow! I like Vitali and I do believe he is underrated but you are overrating him. Man if he could beat the Murder’s Row you named he would be next to Ali and Louis as the best Heavyweight ever. Ok I believe Vitali pushed Lewis into retirement. I think Lewis took him for granted in their fight and it showed. In a rematch I think Vitali would have won but I think a prime Lewis would have beaten him in a tough fight. George Foreman would knock Vitali out. Don’t let that Ali fight fool you. Ali had supernatural pain tolerance. You could hit Ali with a baseball bat and he could take it. Nobody else could have stood up to George like that. When George fought Ron Lyle and Jimmy Young he was more sloppy. The Foreman that beat Ken Norton and Frazier is a nightmare for anybody in history and Im not so sure Ali would have beaten him had they fought a rematch. Evander Holyfield was inconsistent at heavyweight because he had to fight so hard to get to these huge men. Imagine Floyd or Shane fighting Chad Dawson 3 times. Crazy right? That’s what Evander was giving up consistently. The best Holyfield at Heavyweight I would say maybe when he fought the old George Foreman. I would take Holyfield with that in and out bounce and body rhythm to beat Vitali. Vital pulls his head straight back and Holyfield was smart he would start to time him.Plus I don’t think Vitali hits as hard as his ko % would suggest. His lil bro and Lennox Lewis are harder punchers. Vitali frustrates you and beats you down on an accumulation of punches, just look at his knockouts. Holyfield is similar to Ali in his ability to take a beating and Evander never stops trying. Larry Holmes jab was too good and he had too much character to get walked down. Holmes and Klitchko are similar but Holmes had better hand speed and his jab was better. I take H olmes on another decision. Klitchko and Riddick Bowe would be a war. Im assuming a prime Bowe would be the one who beat Holyfield in the 1st fight. Dam it may sound like I’m hating on Vitali but I have never seen him as good as Bowe was that night. Sorry I will take Bowe on a hard fought decision. Next up a prime Tyson. This is a tough one to call for me. Vitali fights tall and he doesn’t give you much. Tyson would be giving up a lot. I’m sure Mike would knock Wladimir out but Vitali has a better hold of his bearings. I would take Vitali in a late stoppage. Dam that one hurt.

 
 
What up Bread, your last couple of bags has been on point; I just want to add to a couple things you said. 1st with Shane making bad decisions; I think that is a more hindsight 20/20 thing with the Oscar III fight. Him and Tito was lined up to fight each other in the Garden if they beat there tune up Tito destroyed Mayoraga which we all thought would happenl Shane got thoroughly outboxed by Winky(this fight was first) and again for second time weeks after the Tito fight most had Shane beating Winky in close fight but we didn't expect Winky to beat the brakes off of Shane. I still want to know what would have happened if Shane fought Tito at 160 like they proposed but I think he made good decision in doing what he did ir just didn't turn out the way he hoped I think him and Tito atleast doo 800K and we all know the Garden would be sold out in hours. 2nd point the scoring in boxing I know the criteria of it but I think its bullshit. I do personally think punch stats should be the main barometer of scoring its about landing punches unless you knock somebody down. If I land 35 punches and you land 13(Oscar vs Tito) are you winning and cleaning punching is BS. Cause you land two hard punches but you get outlanded(Oscar vs Shane II) getting hit occasionally harder doesn't mean you are winning especially if you are getting hit more. Ring generalship is probaly the most bogus especially if you aren't landing)Floyd vs Oscar(after re-watching it he didn't try to carry Oscar, Hatton) bring ing the fighting and missing punches def does not equate to winning a round or a fight. Like the Hatton fight people swear Ricky gave him a heard time I went back and watched again and its only 1 round I can give him the pucnhes he landed ina round was 7 yeah he averaged 6 landed punches per round since only 63 punches over 10 rounds at 21% connect rate while Floyd doubled both those rates it still baffles me people had that a close Rocky was wrestling for than fighting. Bread I'm not saying you said the way they judge is right I'm pointing out my opinion that its uttterly shitty which is the reason we have these terrible decisions. There's only two fights that break my theory Winky vs Jermaine which I agree with the decision of a draw cause in the 6 rounds I had Winky winning he really outlanded Jermaine but the 6 rounds I jad Jermaine winning yeah he landed the harder shots but Winky didn't do to much in those rounds which is why I gave it him. The other one B-Hop vs Joe I may be one of the few who had B-Hop winning simplying because Joe punches like a bitch I was waiting for him to break out the windmill with way he was punching you think he's underated I think he utterly trash and overrated. Lastly you didn't bring it up its a serious problem that I have with boxing is that it is the only sport where you can be heralded and worshipped for losing its like people will tke a pretty loss over a ugly win. I won't lie I'm a sore loser and winning is the only thing that counts there's no such thing as a good loss in my book; Oscar is my 2nd fv fighter of all-time next to Tyson but it kills me he loss 95% of all his big fights people will the excuse he fought everybody; but as a rabid fan its bullshit you fight to win not to have good list of opponents I'm not saying don't fight the best because I want the best match-ups possible but don't do it just cause I know we will disagree. Finally LOL one more point with the Manny bloodtesting thing. People like to bring up Shane, Vargas and Toney failing blood test but there;s a difference Vargas and Toney failed 24 hr later tests because they wasn't taking steriods that wasn't complicated to detect. Shane never failed a drug test he gave the info he was taking years later so to me it isn't diffucult to think Manny is doing the same I hope not. I can't think of to many match-ups so how do you think a prime Chavez does against a young Oscar holla at your boy.

Bread’s Response:Whats up Elston. I answered the Oscar v Chavez question in this mail bag. I also answered the Shane v Tito match up in a previous mailbag. I would have taken Tito in a war. Shane does not move enough laterally and once Tito got warmed up and got into a stalking rhythm he would have beaten Shane. Especially at 160. That fight could have possibly did 800k no doubt about it. Your right about the scoring in each fight you named, the problem is we get to watch the fights over and over and analyze what happened. The judges on the other hand watch the fight from ONE angle live. It is a totally different experience watching it on TV. If you have ever been to a live fight you will see what I mean. The judges are at a disadvantage. Throughout time scoring a fight has been subjected to so much scrutiny. I am actually in favor of the criteria used to score a fight I just don’t think the judges know how to implement it correctly. Ring Generalship is not bogus. When you can command and control when the action in the ring is initiated and quelled it’s a special quality. You ever see a solid pro and a amateur spar? The pro will CONTROL the fight with experienced qualities and it will drive the amateur crazy. Floyd beat Oscar on Ring Generalship and clean punching. Andre Ward and Bernard Hopkins are Ring Generals. They control the action even if they don’t beat all of their opponents down. It’s a subtle quality but if you ever watch a fight and you wonder why you get the impression one guy is winning but they are both landing similarly it is because of Ring Generalship. Joe Calzaghe is not over rated. He is an all time great. Joe Calzaghe has unreal body rhythm and Ring Generalship , he always looks like he is in control of his fights. I know you see me state this constantly when I say a guy is an animal on the inside. Well Calzaghe is just that. The harder you fight him the more special he becomes. Byron Mitchell almost knocked his head off and Calzaghe got up and attacked him like he just mugged his mother. Look at the Roy Jones fight. Joe got hurt early , got up and put his mind in a place where he was stalking Roy Jones with his hands down. He became immune to Jones power. I know Jones is not the same guy but it was impressive because he had already hurt Calzaghe. Calzaghe is indefatigable and undeterred. He is truly special and he beat Bernard. Bhop almost had an asthma attack in that fight because Joe controlled the pace. As for Oscar. Oscar was one of my favorite fighters too. I also became frustrated that he didn’t win certain fights. But lets look at his big fights. Let’s keep them in perspective as to if they were BIG for him at the time they took place. I consider Oscar’s 1st real big fight to be against Rafael Ruelas, then Genaro Hernandez, then Chavez 1, then Miguel Angel Gonzales, then Pernell Whitaker, then Ike Quartety, then Trinidad, then Mosley, then Vargas, then Mosley2, then Bhop, then Mayorga, then Floyd , then Manny. If you notice I didn’t bring up the Jesse James Leija, Arturo Gatti, Javier Castillejo type contest. I picked all of the fights where he had a decent chance of losing for various reasons. Before you say Mayorga wasn’t a BIG fight, Mayorga was the junior middleweight champ, Oscar had not fought in 2 years and Mayorga had only been beat down up until that point by a 160 lb Trinidad. Nobody expected Oscar to destroy him like that, he was still very capable look at the trouble he gave Shane 2 years later. So I say it’s fair to say Oscar didn’t win his big fights LATELY but he won his share of Big fights. So I have Oscar winning 8 big fights and losing 6. I also think he beat Tito and Shane in the 2nd fight. Lastly he lost to five 1st ballot hall of famers and all time greats. That’s a very pertinent fact when discussing Oscar’s legacy. He was also well past his prime against Floyd and Manny and had become a part time fighter by then. All of his losses were very competitive except for the Manny fight. How you lose is very important if you do lose. Arguello, Hearns, Frazier to name a few all lost like true soldiers and fought their hearts out and they are rewarded historically for it.

M

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