DAILY BREAD SATURDAY EDITION: (11-2-13)
By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
What up Bread?!?
I hope that all is going well in your world. As usual I had a few quick questions for you:
Gennady "GGG" Golovkin ~ I know the first person that I heard say something was Gabriel Rosado, but he recently said that he felt GGG had some Margo-cheato action going on with his gloves in their match. Have you heard of this before or is this a case of sour grapes? I only ask because I saw one or two boxing writers make reference to the same thing todayÖ
Gennady "GGG" Golovkin versus Curtis Stevens.. Who do you like and why? It definitely seems like all the hype and belief is in GGG. I donít know, I think the hater in me is riding like the headless horseman! But, in any event GGG is nice but he has SOOO much hype that it kind of bothers, like with Seth Mitchell, it just rubs me wrong. Anyway, what do you think of GGGís skill, although I am more curious about your opinion on his power; Stevenson has made some, on the surface, valid comments about GGG fighting smaller fighters and therefore saying that his power is not as crazy as its made out to beÖ
Mike Alvarado~ Well, I have to eat crow here because I flat-out thought Mike was going to rather easily out box the pit-bull on two legs, seems I was VERY wrong!! I had him stereotyped as a ESPN fighter and because Tim came in ready to fight a stupid fight I gave Ruslan little to no credit for that battle, never again will I short change the man. In terms of this bout it made me wonder what (if any) protocols you have for when to throw in the towel with your own fighters, or is that a case by case type if thing? Thatís got to be a hairy situationÖ
Kid Chocolate~ I loved this match! Both guys went hard, blood, guts and skills, not much more you can ask for. I didnít like the stoppage live because it seemed like the ref fronted the doctor off and basically forced his hand to stop the fight (but after looking at the cut later, I was not nearly as upset, that boy was deep and nasty!). I am a fan of Kid Chocolate, but in ALL the fights I have seen him in there definitely is an air of ďvulnerabilityĒ that I think makes for more excitement. I like his skill, heart and attitude but after the Gabe fight I think that the GGG bout might be a bit much. Hopefully you can talk about this but I remember you saying you have a fighter in that camp or working closely with KidÖ
B-hop~ Iím just curious about what you have to say about the marvel in general. Saturday the homie put on a SHOW!! When he was talking to Muratís corner, dodging punches then beat him into the opposite corner I was losing my mind! I am in awe of B-hopÖ
Breadís Response: In order. I read what Rosado said and he suggested that the the gloves that were made by Grant didnít have proper padding in the knuckle area. Itís important when we repeat claims like this we get them right. He didnít say anything about cement in GGGís handwraps. That would have been Margarito-like, but that's not what Rosado said. I havenít heard this before Rosado mentioned it and I donít know much about it. GGGís team did respond and say that they gave Rosado the option to wear their gloves when he complained and they would wear the alternates and Rosado refused. So I donít know whatís up. All big punchers have myth and folklore behind their punch. For now I believe GGG is a legit big puncher, nothing more nothing less.
GGGís talent and skill surpass his accomplishments. He hasnít fought a top 5 middleweight yet. But that doesnít mean heís a fraud. I actually think heís the best middleweight in the world. I also think they waited too long to bring him over here. Heís already 30Ö. I think his power is legit and Stevens will find out first hand. I am picking GGG by mid round stoppage. I think he beats him down primarily with a jab then he breaks him down with body shots. Stevensís only chance is to catch GGG with his patented catch counter hook move. Itís not out of the question but GGG was 345-5 as an amateur. He should be able to offset one move.
Throwing the towel in depends on the fighter. Some fighters will tell you donít throw the towel in under any circumstances. Some will talk a lot of shit how they will never quit. Others will just be professional warriors and trust their corners to do the right thing. I donít know Alvarado so I donít know what kind of guy he is. I wonít blame the corner because I donít know the communication of the team. From the outside looking in it seemed as though the corner could have saved Alavarado the embarrassment of surrendering himself. But who knowsÖ Itís really a fight by fight, fighter by fighter type of thing. There is no rule book on when to surrender in the corner.
Quillen vs Rosado was a very good fight. I saw two hungry fighters trying to implement their game plans and we were treated to an excellent match up. People are blaming Quillen because of what the officials did. Quillen is a warrior. Warriors like Quillen donít want or need help. When officials interfere itís almost insulting to the fighter that it benefits if the fighter is a true warrior.
I saw what Quillen was putting himself through in camp. He was sparring 4 minute rounds, with 4 young guns. Each guy was giving him hell. You donít put yourself through that, to want help. As for the fight itself, I thought it was a very close fight. Quillen may have been winning by a slight margin because of the knockdown but not by much. Rosado seemed to coming on strong and he visibly shook Quillen more than once. Rosado seemed to be the fresher, stronger fighter at the time of the stoppage.
People keep repeating the cut was bad but the cut was under control. Look at the fight and you will see a cut that was NOT bleeding at the time of the stoppage. So therefore no blood was going into Rosadoís eye. The officials didnít hold up their fingers and ask Rosado how many fingers they had up. They also could have allowed the 10th round to end so Rosadoís corner could work on the cut.
I personally donít like the smell of what happened. In no way was it Quillenís fault but Gabriel Rosado got screwed over. If Rosadoís was a non puncher who was getting his butt whipped from pillar to post, I wouldnít have had a problem with the stoppage. But Rosado had shown he could hurt Quillen and he was coming on, he deserved better than that.
I like Rosado and Quillen both, both guys deserve better.
The judges in the fight were also despicable. How anybody could have had Quillen up 9 rounds to nothing is just incomprehensible. Aaron Davis already has suspended judges indefinitely because of the Erislandy Lara vs Paul Williams fight. He should again in this case. Quillen doesnít need his victories to be tainted, thatís not fair to him and Gabe Rosado came up so dam hard. He already has 7 losses. At least let the guy participate in a fair fight on ALL fronts.
Bernard Hopkins is one of the greatest fighters to ever live. And heís probably one of the best 3 or 4 fighters ever over 40. His performances and accomplishments over 40 could be better than his accomplishments in his 30ís. In his 40ís he beat Kelly Pavlik, Jean Pascal, Winky Wright, Antonio Tarver and Tavoris Cloud. In his 30ís heat beat Felix Trinidad, John David Jackson, Glenn Johnson and Oscar De La Hoya. Think about that.
Does Gennady "GGG" Golovkin remind you of Kosta Tyszu? (he does to me) and if so when do you think he'll have his Vince Philipps moment? I know Steven can crack but will he be able to cause GGG problems?(maybe Jrock as he reminds me of B-Hop) also who do you see in the MW division giving GGG problems? I was Very High on Pirog and was disappointed to see him out with injuries that's the slickest white boy out there. OH and also no break down just an eyeball test off the top of your head. Rios vs Broner at 147,(my pickRios) Garcia vs Rios at 147 (my pick Garcia), Mahttysse vs Alvarado at 140 (My pick Alvarado) and Garcia vs Thurman at 147(Thurman)? oh and who do you have in the Broner vs Maidana( I got Maidana) fight?
Breadís Response: Yes GGG does remind of Kostya Tszyu. Tszyu was one helluve fighter. In a head to head historical sense he is very underrated. Because Tszyu was very disciplined and grew strong into his frame he was really concrete strong at 140. GGG is very Tszyu like.
Vince Phillips came out of nowhere to beat Tszyu but I donít believe Stevens is GGGís Vince Phillips. Vince Phillips was an extremely tough fighter who beat some really good guys. A young Mickey Ward, Kelson Pinto and a few others. Phillips also was a dog. You could beat on Vince and he would keep pushing. Iím not saying Stevens will break if you beat on him but I donít get the sense heís Vince Phillips tough. I say Stevensís only shot is a punch on GGGís nerve center. Other than that Iím expecting a fun one sided war and I wouldnít be surprised if it ended on something freaky like an injury or foul. Stevens is a prideful young man and he has put himself out there with his mouth. Allowing himself to get knocked out in front of his hometown may not be something heís willing to do if you understand what Iím saying.
J Rock does remind some people of Bhop. He actually reminds me of Donald Curry and Terry Norris when heís really on. GGG could be in our future but J Rock is a natural super welterweight, we donít plan on moving up anytime soon.
I donít want to make picks on fights that havenít been signed. As for Broner vs Maidana this is an unofficial pick but Iím leaning towards Broner. Maidana got beat up pretty bad by Devon Alexander who is handled by Kevin Cunningham. Cunningham also works with Broner. They picked Maidana for a reason. I know Maidana is riding high but we canít forget what happened in the Alexander fight. We also canít forget who Maidana has been riding high against.
I am a BIG Maidana fan but I have not seen a fighter show so much physical discomfort in a long while. Maidana is always looking like heís about to be stopped especially when you go to his body. That being said Broner is always high risk because of his lifestyle. He has looked huge at the press conferences and his drinking and sexing canít be good for his conditioning. But heís 24.......
What's up Bread
Its been a minute since I chopped it up with you. Since my boy Zab is gonna go ahead and fight malinaggi. I was wondering how you see the fight based on their last fights? Also one time I asked you about what I think is Zabs biggest problem being he allows himself to get walked down. You told me a fighter needs to dig to the body effectively to counter that. I especially saw an example of that when I watched Chavez/whitaker. (terrible draw pete one that by at least 5 rds). But anyway, chavez was walking pete down until he put a masterful performance on digging to chavez body hard he stayed in the pocket and was landing hard shots they say he wasn't a puncher but he was landing hard that night and had chavez respect for damn sure. When was on the outside he circled him and was still landing. What I'm getting at Bread is that even though he was the smaller man he still acted like the BOSS. My man Zab needs to be the Boss and throw punches I hate all that waiting to counter all night man throw something with "both hands" al bernstein made a comment during the garcia fight saying there's a rare right hook from Zab he needs keep throwing that shot. Two fists bread that's what we need and get stronger too. I know I got a little long winded but I just get a litle frustrated
Jason in Dallas
Breadís Response: Iím a really big fan of both Zab and Pauile. Both of them are super cool. If you force me to pick Iím leaning towards Zab. Here is the reason. Styles. Usually fighters who do well with southpaws have creative right hands. Hopkins, Jones and Mayweather. All of those guys can throw lead rights, change the angle on their right hands etc etc. Paulie is more of a left hand happy jabber. If Zab was right handed I would probably pick Paulie to outhustle him. But heís not heís a powerful lefty.
I expect controversy because Paulie will throw many more punches. But Zab will throw the more judge friendly punches. He will also be able to be more active than usual because of Paulieís lack of power.
I feel your rant but Paulie wonít be trying to walk Zab down, heís going to try to out busy Zab and jab his head off.
Hey breadman, this might not make your mailbag but I would love your input. I just read a article with Angel Garcia where he said he doesn't want Danny to jump straight up to 147 even if it's a Mayweather fight. He said he wants to move him up to 147 the right way. Maybe a catch weight at 143 or 144 and naturally move him up. I think he's a smart guy. He's not chasing the money cause he said there not rich but there comfortable. He knows how to promote fight and cause a uproar and be respectful after fights to the opponent. What he has done for Danny in the last few years, why hasn't he been considered for trainer of the year? Danny always seems to win when he is the downfall. I don't know if Angel boxed in his life but what he's doing for his son is working. What's ur thoughts on him since you probably know him from Philly?
Eric from Bmore
Breadís Response: As far as I know Angel was not a boxer but you donít have to be a boxer in order to teach someone to box. Angel is doing an incredible job with his son and he deserves mention as the Trainer of the Year.
I visited the Garciaís gym a few times to spar and Danny and his dad rolled out the red carpet. They were very hospitable and I have nothing but nice things to say about them. Danny is one heck of a fighter and his dad deserves some credit for that.
Hey Bread. Curious to hear your opinion about the way Steve Smoger officiated the Hopkins Murat bout. I thought it was disgusting. I also think it impacted the outcome. Murat was facing two opponents, and was visibly confused and frustrated by each. I never had a beef with Smoger but that was fucked up.
I would protest the fight, to be honest. Hopkins threw a blatant rabbit punch and Smoger joked with him about it. After the bell a couple times, he jumped in to protect Bhop. Then afterward a 12 round championship bout, Smoger mushed Murats face. And I saw the head but...it was dirty. But I have seen a ref retaliate physically like that. And the verbal tone and yelling at Murat really made it seem like he was a third class human lucky to be in Steve and Bernard's clubhouse. I would not have blamed Murat for hitting Smoger in the stomach after the fight.
Breadís Response: I really like Steve. I think heís a great ref who had a really bad night. As long as those nights are far and fewÖ..His referreeing didnít affect the outcome of the fight.
Much respect Bread. I hope one of my emails make your mailbag. A few things. I read one of your mailbags and talked about how boxing has not evolved when it comes to the endurance, durability, and technique of the fighters now when compared to the fighters of the past. It may have actually regressed. Why do you think this is so. Have people gotten more comfortable with the technology and comforts of the present. Has the human species actually regressed in that sense. It would seem as though we talk so highly of the fighters of the past, the fighters of today would copy them and therefore perform like them. What are your thoughts? Next, I don't think Broner has what it takes to compete with Maidana. I hope I'm wrong, but it think Maidana will lay hands on this kid. I think Broner's self promotion has got him to a level where his mouth will not match his action. Also. I think Pacquiao destroys Rios. Rios has no answer for Manny's quick feet (along with his devastating power). Lastly, I know Deontay Wilder just fought a journeyman, but that dude has some serious snap to his punches. I admit, his defense looks a little suspect and we have no clue about his heart and stamina and chin. I'm really rooting for this kid. Whatchu think??
Breadís Response: I wouldnít say the human has regressed, I think the boxers have regressed because of circumstances you speak of. If you put these guys today in more harsh conditions then they would adapt over time. But because of the BS matchmaking, inactivity, Con Man strength coaches, bad diets, non running you have what you have.
I think if Broner is at his best he beats Maidana. If Pac is at 85% he destroys Rios. Big IFís.
I like Wilderís power. I like his personality. I donít want to be over critical but I see about 8 or 9 heavytweights who beat Wilder bad. I see why Golden Boy has been so careful with him. Itís more to boxing than just a BIG punch. Wilder is still improving so he has a shot but they better be careful. I wonít pick the kid apart out of respect. Thatís not fair to him because he knows he needs improving. But just donít crazy about him yet. Heís very, very green and under developed for a 30-0 fighter who medaled in the Olympics.
Hope all is well with you and yours as usual. I see you are continuing the top work with your stable of fighters. Top man!
We've just seen Kell Brook demolish Senchenko in 4 rounds to supposedly re-establish his status as challenger to Mr Devon Alexander. Hopefully this time around both men can stay fit through camp and make it to the ring.
As you've followed Brook (which pleases us Brits) I'd again love to hear your unbiased / to the point review of his performance (including any faults...particularly the mistakes he made in the lead up to Senchenko rocking his boots early in the 4th) if you managed to see it on US TV or YouTube?
I personally think Brook beats Alexander handsomely. I say that because I don't think Devon likes a fight where he's under pressure. Saying that I understand and appreciate that Devon is a much improved fighter since the whole Bradley debacle! I would love to hear your thoughts on how this fight goes
One love from the UK.
Breadís Response: I met some Uk fans at the Mayweather/Canleo fight. You guys are so passionate. I like Kell Brook I really do. But I think he lacks confidence in fighting the best over here. Thatís my honest assessment of him. Actions speak louder than words. His team took a step back AFTER he won an eliminator over Carson Jones. He didnít have to fight Jones again. But he needed the confidence booster.
Brook may or may not be able to beat Alexander. I think itís a really good fight. But my opinion is Devon is willing to fight Kell and Kell is not sure if he wants to fight Devon. Brook has over 30 fights and heís like 27 years old. Itís time to fight for a title.
He looked good against Senchenko hopefully that gives him the confidence he needs. I think he can definitely hold his own with the best welters in the world. One more thing. I donít feel as though Brook is comfortable making 147lbs. little things he has said and the way his body looks tells me he would be more comfortable at 154. But 154 may be too big for him so he has a dilemma. Letís remember he fought the Carson Jones rematch at a catchweight over 147Ö
Thanks for the love over their guys. You have a big one coming up in Froch vs Groves.
This email has been a long time coming! I have visited the multiple times per-day since the launch of the site, I was even one of the first 100 members when subscription was introduced. Initially I followed Greg Leons rise up the boxing echelons through his mailbag and groundbreaking interviews. It coincided with the time I became hardcore boxing fan, to this day I still have my alarm set for 2.30am every Saturday night to catch the fights on American television(the Mrs is slowly ending this!).
Boxingtalk has always been my link to serious and knowledgable discussions around the fight news of the time. None of my friends/family follow boxing, unless its a super fight. So initially its just a simple nod of appreciation to you, Greg and all the other writers over the years.
Over the last few years I have enjoyed reading your advanced analysis on the fight game in general. Itís quite hard to find informed boxing articles/staments these days. Although I have read nearly all the mailbags on here for years, for some reason I have never felt compelled to mail. Seemingly always satisfied to read the questions and responses. So I thought I'd ask a few things!
1) Please correct me if I'm wrong, I remember you mentioned in a mailbag that you thought Wladmir had a form of panic attack during the Povetkin fight. I have always had this issue with him, early on people said he had fatigue(Brewster)but it is all mental problems with him. David Price has has two losses due to the exact same deficiency.
I do respect Wlads accomplishments but I think he is there for the taking. I expected Haye to rush him out of there, but he fought way too conservatively for a big heavyweight fight. He's also a counter puncher by nature and at a disadvantage physically.
My point is this, I believe the HW division is there for the taking and arguably on the edge of a generational change. Who is capable of dethroning the Klitschkos? I think Deontay Wilder could 'do a Cory Sanders' on Wlad but not the overall quality to reign. What do you see for the HW division over the next ten years? Do you have a pick for the next dominant champion?
2) Timothy Bradley to is a very good fighter and champion who has proven a lot people wrong with his win over Marquez. For me, I donít think heís an elite champion and is possibly about to build a resume greater then his ability. We often mention many fighters who have under achieved, I just wanted to know who you think were the sports best over achievers. Who has the best career records beyond their own boxing/fighting ability?
Also, if Bradley manages to shock Mayweather(Mayweather has lost rounds unfairly in his last few fights) when they meet, he could hold wins over 3 instant HOF fighters. Where does he stand then?(slightly rhetorical)
3) Regardless of network, the boxing Ďexpertsí place too much emphasis on the obvious attributes of fighters(age sped, power, chin, stamina). Assuming all viewers are there to just watch two people brawl. How often do they mention reaction time, judgement of distance, adaptability, decision making of fighters or ? Boxing needs to take a giant leap forward in terms of fight presentation and viewer consideration. Its needs analysis, stats and more information about fighters. I loved your breakdown on how speed has many categories, I always wanted to explain it as concisely when arguing why the faster fighter doesnít always land first etc.
Joe Rogan, although dramatic at times, has a great knowledge of his sport and the fighters within. He analyses the fight with viewer as the fight progress, mentioning what a fighter is going/trying to do. He is completely involved with MMA. People like Max Kellerman donít try and be involved with the fighters directly our the gym circuit.
Lots of boxing commentators just state what punches have landed, not giving and insight into the subtleties of boxing. I enjoyed the late great Manny Steward as he always was aware of what each fighter needed to do to impose himself on the other. I also enjoyed listening to Gil Clancy on older fights.
Couldnít HBO/Showtime have:
A panel of ex/current boxers judging the fight?
Better stats. Individual punches and distance covered in the ring.
Cornermen with helmet Cameras.
Referee camera and mic - I love that the referee in American Football informs the crowds of decisions, boxing referees have they own gestures and tendencies, sometimes the viewers/fans donít understand whats going on.
How can boxing improve its event presentation and who are your favourite commentators of past and present?
5) Could you list the 5 most influential men/women in boxing?
Sorry for all the questions.
Breadís Response: Thanks for the love Dean. I really appreciate it.
1. Yes I believe Wlad has uncontrollable panic attacks. Wlad is too smart to do some of the counterproductive things I have seen him do in the ring. The flopping around against Sam Peter and Lamon Brewster and the excessive mounting vs Alexander Povetkin. There is no doubt he has panic attacks. I have no idea who the next dominant heavyweight will be. Wilder has a chance to be a titlist but as of now he would need to improve a lot for him to be a dominant 10 defense type of champion.
2. Bradley is an excellent fighter. He could be a HOF. With one more big victory he secures a spot. Glen Johnson is the guy who comes to mind as not an ultra talented guy but has achieved a lot. Rocky Marciano would probably be the #1 guy though. But for the record I think Bradley is talented, heís just not a good puncher. But heís fast, athletic and very coordinated.
3. I actually like Max Kellerman I think heís very good. But I agree with you that a lot of the analysis should be more in depth. I like your idea of the helmet cam. I think we need more stats about fighters. No doubt. But we have to be careful not to turn boxing into baseball.
My favorite commentators have been Howard Cossell, Larry Merchant, Barry Thompkins, Steve Farhood, Max Kellerman and Roy Jones.
4. Al Haymon, Floyd Mayweather, HBO, Showtime and Richard Shaffer
Whatís up Bread-
I agree with everything that you stated about Mike Alvarado...I did not view him as a quitter as well. When I first heard that he might be facing Ruslan Provodnikov I thought that he was in for it! I didn't no Mikeís recent track record beyond Prescott and Rios; however coming off of the Riosí wars and Rios gets Manny and Mike gets Ruslan I felt that was totally unfair. Rios gets a lottery ticket and Mike gets Jason Voorhees. In this instance the winner was not rewarded he was penalized. Mike Alvarado may never be the same fighter again or ever receive that kind of payday! Boxing is my second favorite sport behind basketball and over the last few years it has been closing on #1. I say all this to say that I get frustrated as hell when I see a fighter bust his ass and risk everything and people just gloss over it like its not a big deal. People say things like this fighter is a quitter, he is ducking this fighter and his style is boring! Yet none of these people no what its like to step in the ring on that level or any level.
I recently watched the Gatti vs. Ward documentary on HBO and I was really surprised how much love those guys received. You have two fighters with limited defenses and they get talked about like they are ATGís. First and foremost I respect all fighters everywhere across the globe but real boxing fans know better. They were rewarded financially and historically in boxing because they were tuff and they did not no how to avoid punches!!! That shit is so crazy to me...it is like the media picks and chooses who they want to deem good, bad or boring! Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant crying...wtf was that? Iím frustrated because I know that it takes more training, studying of the game and discipline to not become just a slugger. Mike Alvarado attempted to not just become a slugger and box smart and he has been ridiculed ever sense. In my opinion this is a big piece of the pie on why boxing is suffering!
Breadís Response: We will agree and disagree. We agree about Mike Alvarado he received way too much criticism. After watching Gerald McClellan go blind and almost die I am careful what I say about a fighter, Especially when one has given as much as Alvarado has. I also agree that people are too critical of fighters.
But as I say that you go off on Gatti and Ward. Let me let you in on something. Arturo Gatti was a heck of a fighter. In fact in 1997 he was on the bottom half of some p4p list. He had an excellent run at 130lbs. I hate when people downgrade Gatti to some bar room brawler. The kid had flaws but he could fight.
He could box at times, he could throw every punch in the book. He could take it and he had one of the biggest hearts ever. He also didnít care who he fought. By the way heís a HOF fighter. Mickey Ward wasnít as good as Gatti but he was real fighter. He wasnít blessed with the ability to do certain things, so he held his hands up high, and went to the body like a sob. Letís just leave those guys alone. They both hold a special place in my heart and memory.
Send questions and comments to: firstname.lastname@example.org