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DAILY BREAD MONDAY EDITION 10-15-12
By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
Once again, excellent video mailbag breakdown on Brandon "Bam Bam" Rios' win over Mike Alvarado and Nonito Donaire's win over Toshiaki Nishioka--great insight on Nonito's gloves btw. Rios was impressive in his ability to keep coming forward through some tough shots. I am up on sunday rewatching the fight to see what style could beat him and who would i like to see him fight. Who would win between Bam Bam and Lamont Peterson, Danny Garcia, Juan Manuel Marquez, Lucas Matthysse (this would be an all out war!), and Tim Bradley (at 144lbs)? Of all the guys on the list, Mattysse is the only one I can see clearly beating him, JMM may be too old and Peterson is a close, entertaining war. Thoughts? -- Billy Bomaye, Washington, DC
Bread’s Response: Thanks man. Brandon Bam Bam Rios is a cold killer. And I mean that. In the trenches for the next few years, ANYBODY he fights will have huge problems. Rios’s ability to carry you fast is what wears you out. He’s pressing you with that high forearm guard and he’s hitting you with shots that are sticking with you. He has a flaw, but I won’t get into that now. It will take someone super gifted or with alien-like toughness to beat him at his best.
Brandon may be too accurate for Lamont. I really like Lamont’s moxy but he brawls a lot and that won’t bode well for him against Brandon. Lamont loves it in the trenches and I think Brandon is too accurate and heavyhanded for him. I would have to see Lamont box a discipline fight for 12 rounds before I could pick him against Bam Bam.
Danny is an excellent fighter and he could conceivably catch Brandon. Danny and Nonito are the best in boxing right now at punching WHILE you are punching. The problem would be if Danny could keep up with Brandon. Right now, I lean towards Rios because I know more about him and I think Danny’s defense is slightly leaky on the inside. See Rios’s defense is simple. It looks crude but sometimes when you are good at just one thing, it’s easier to employ in a fight because that one thing comes to your mind and not 10 things.
Rios just gets smaller behind his gloves and forearms, he tucks his big head and redirects punches. Nothing fancy. In a war that would be significant against Danny.
I can’t call Bam Bam vs Marquez or Mattysse. I would have to watch more film and break some stuff down because they are too close to call at this point. Let me get back to you on those.
Rios and Bradley have the same manager I don’t think they will fight. No need to speculate.
Your weekend analysis and predictions are insane man ... U were 100% accurate in all ways ... It takes a lot to impress me to this level ... I don't know if u can ever top this lol ... Everything from the defensive moves Brandon Rios used in the pocket down to the last bell [when he stopped Mike Alvardao]. In the Nonito Donaire fight, and it's over and I see the blood on his hand wraps ... Your eyes are crazy sometimes I see things u see but it's kinda subconscious and u bring it to light ... Highly impressed ... At some point u will obtain a bigger platform and take over ... As always GODSPEED.
Bread’s Response: Thanks Luis, I don’t mind you cursing in my mailbag, lol as long as it’s not insulting.
You know I will admit I do have an eye for detail. And I am very prideful. I don’t want to be wrong although I have acceptance when I am. I also have in my hands a few young fighters’ careers and I don’t want to make a mistake with their lives. So now I have taken things to the next level with my observations.
I always try to study a fighter in two ways. The first way as if he’s an opponent. When you look at a fighter as an opponent you look at him flaw of NOT in awe of. Then I look at a guy as if I was working his corner, where I look at him just the opposite. Because when you are working WITH a guy you tell him to do things that will benefit him, when you are working against a guy you tell your fighter to do things that will hurt him.
That’s really my secret and I try not to be over analytical. Sometimes experts come up with all these intricate reasons why an outcome will take place but they don’t understand boxing is simple. It’s only complicated when you make it complicated.
No need to recap the fights they went how I thought. I will say that somebody needs to recognize Nonitos’ hand problems and change his gloves. Because if we don’t will lose one of the finest punchers in the history of boxing prematurely. A fighter’s hands should NOT bleed that heavy after a fight.
I read a mail bag recently where you said that you could name 10 fights that Floyd Mayweather could have and should have made that would have enhanced his legacy. And while I agree he could have made more fights I don't agree that those fights would have enhanced his legacy. There is only 1 fight that could have enhanced his legacy. Let me explain 1) In order to be considered the greatest you need great opponents to prove yourself against and so being great is not only a function of talent and skill but of timing. 2) Floyd has fought and beat most of the best fighters in his error. 3) There is only one great fighter left that could change Floyd's place on the GOAT's list and unless he fights him and wins his place among the greats will not change. With that being said here is a list of Floyd's greatest win's
1) Genaro Hernandez 38 - 0 - 1 World Champ and borderline HOFer, P4Per standard bearer for this generation. 2) Diego Corrales 33 - 0 World Champion borderline HOFer P4Per boxing icon for his 10th round comeback against Jose Luis Castillo 3) Jose Luis Castillo 45 - 3 World Champion (twice) 4) Arturo Gatti 39 - 5 according to you he is a Hall of Famer, not in my book but he is an outstanding fighter 5) Sharmba Mitchell 56 - 3 World Champion very good fighter. 6) Zab Judah World Champion 34 - 2 one notch below HOFer status P4Per. 7) Oscar Dela Hoya 38 - 4 HOFer P4Per standard bearer for this generation and biggest star of this generation before Floyd. Ricky Hatton 43 - 0 World Champion and borderline HOFer P4Per. 8) Juan Manuel Marquez 50 - 3 World Champion HOFer and P4Per and standard bearer for this generation of fighters. 9) Shane Mosley 46 - 4 World Champion HOFer P4Per standard bearer for this generation. 10) Miquel Cotto 37 - 3 world Champion HOFer and standard bearer for this generation.
That list read's like a who's who list of the best fighters of this error from 130 - 154 now let's compare the list of the most notable fights not made minus the obvious.
1) Paul Williams - Are we seriously going to argue that Paul Williams who lost to Carlos Quintana and Erislandy Lara could add anthing to Floyd's legacy?? All due Respect to Paul but Fact is Paul Williams never beat a great fighter or a P4Per 2) Antonio Margarito's greatest win is against Cotto and we all know that win has an asterisk beside it and if you take that away the dude has beat no one with a pulse. 3) Joshua No Punches Thrown Clottey?? Please he lost to Margarito. 4) Vernon Forest's best win came against Shane Mosely and it's noteable but he got KO'd by Mayorga and decisioned the second time and then lost to a Contender that alone kills your credibility. 4) Kosta Tszyu never fought at a weight higher than 140 his whole career (who does that?) Floyd started out at 130 and did not make it to 135 until the 2002 the Castillo fight it wasn't until 2004 the Corley fight that Floyd fought at 140. By this time Tszyu was about ready to retire he lost to Hatton in 2005 and was done. Not sure if this is a realistic fight Tszyu never went up why should Floyd and why isn't Tszyu critisized for not fighting bigger guys? Some people want Floyd to fight Martinez...a middleweight SMH 5) Erick Morrales started at 122 in 1993 and didn't make it to 130 till 2003 Guty Espadas Jr fight in 2003 Floyd was at 135 if it took Morrales 10 years to move up 10 pounds I doubt if he'd move up 5 more to fight a bigger, younger killer at 135 not a realistic fight. 6) Marco Antonio Barrera started in 1989 at 111 didn't make it to 135 until 2004 the first Morales fight, this is similar to Morrales I doubt they wanted any part of Floyd.
You said you have 10 but I could only think of 6 I guess if you include Shane and Cotto because of the timing of the fight you could argue that Floyd waited till they were shop worn but we must remember before Floyd bought out his contract from Bob Arum he wanted fo fight Cotto and the Bobfather was having none of it and Floyd called Shane out after he beat Vargas and Shane suddenly got a tooth ache so can't blame him for that either.
Am I missing something I'd like your feed back.
On another note my Texans are 5 - 0 and as long as we don't have to play our 3 string QB we gone make some noise this year. Quick betting note Aaron Rodgers is 42 - 1 when his QB rating is 100 or better 8 - 9 when it's 95 or less so if you think he can be perfect against the best defense in the NFL then take the points and Green Bay if not then you can be a Texan fan for the day and make some bread. LOL
TStew repping Htown till the death of me...
Bread’s Response: The Texans were my darkhorse SuperBowl pick. I like them a lot.
Back to boxing. …Thomas are you serious bro? I respect all of you guys that take the time to write me a well thought out email, but if this was a debate I would TKO you worse than Obama or Romney would. Save this reply because I’m not going to do this again. I had a good breakfast and I have some energy, so….
First off let me say this. You have to understand my rules of logic because I don’t waiver. I would NEVER say Floyd ducked a fighter who is not in his weight class. That’s straight up being over critical or hatin. So he’s NOT DUCKING Sergio Martinez. BUT if he did decide to make the fight, how could you imply that it wouldn’t increase his legacy.
He would in essence be beating a possible HOF, RING magazine champion at middleweight! Do you know how the view of him changes if he did that. He would probably be a slight underdog in the fight. Most experts perceive Floyd as a small welterweight. Whenever you talk about hypothetical match ups with some of the bigger welterweights, people sometimes say Floyd is too small.
I personally don’t think Floyd is small. I think he has favorable size but that is the perception. So him beating Martinez, and winning titles from 130 to 160, wouldn’t be legacy enhancing…. Thomas you’re crazy my man. Lol. Sometimes you guys who are both Floyd and Manny’s fans make up things in your heads to prove false points. Stop IT!
Now let me go through your horrible list and analogies. You said Genaro Hernandez was 38-0-1. That’s false! What you did was try to enhance a guy that Floyd fought, while you diminish guys he didn’t fight. WRONG!
Hernandez was 38-1-1 and he quit against Oscar De La Hoya, similar to how he quit against Floyd. If you don’t believe me go back and do proper research then write me back. I’m not saying he wasn’t a quality fighter but don’t add sauce to your arguments in an attempt to sway opinion. Tell it like it is.
Next you bring up Diego Corrales. That was an excellent win. But going by your Paul Williams logic, Corrales can’t be that exceptional because he later lost to no punching Joshua Clottey. Oh you forgot to add that. And he was knocked out by Jose Luis Castillo. Oh and Joel Casamayor beat him 2 out of 3. See how this goes. It’s easy to say Paul Williams wouldn’t have been able to do anything with Floyd because he lost after the window with Floyd closed. 99% of top fighters lose my man.
Now these are your words not mine, but you brought up TIMING. Floyd fought Mosley and Cotto LATE when he could’ve made the fights earlier. I’m not going to say he fought a past it Oscar because that fight only became viable when Floyd moved up. But he could’ve fought Cotto in 2008 and didn’t. And you may not want to believe this but he was supposed to fight Mosley before Mosley made the jump to welter. But I will give you those; I’m going to get into the guys he MISSED that prompted you to email me.
I never said Floyd ducked Barerra or Morales. Not one time did I ever say something like that. Those fights were possible but not viable. I said Floyd missed many fighters that would’ve have helped his legacy. Let me school you.
Floyd Mayweather, Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. and Alexis Arguello are almost universally recognized as the best junior lightweights ever. They all held the belt around the same amount of time and had almost the same number of title defenses. But none of them unified. Floyd could have historically separated himself if he would’ve fought Joel Casamayor and Acelino Freitas. They were both undefeated champions with him, in the same division for 3 years. Could you imagine Floyd’s resume if he unifies 130 and beats 3 undefeated titlist in the division. I’m not saying he “DUCKED” them but he did MISS them and the fights would’ve have enhanced him.
Ok go to 135 and Floyd goes through a slight rough patch in his career. He fought the beast in Castillo twice. I watched boxing at this time, I’m not researching it. When you lived through something you get a different grasp on it. Stevie Johnston was the #1 contender to the WBC belt. He had fought in 12 WBC title fights. People call Castillo the beast of the time but in reality when Castillo beat Johnston by razor close decision it was the upset of the year, that’s how highly regarded Johnston was. They fought a rematch and Johnston was declared the winner. Only to find out later the judges added the scorecards incorrectly and the fight was ruled a draw. So in two fights against Castillo, Johnston had performed on par with Floyd.
After Floyd beat Castillo in their rematch a fight with Johnston loomed. But it wasn’t made. Johnston was forced to fight an eliminator against Juan Lascano about a year later, lost and never got the shot. Meanwhile Floyd fought Victor Sosa and Phillip Ndou. Again I’m not saying he DUCKED Johnston, but he missed him and that fight could’ve been made. Johnston I believe was with Top Rank or had a good relationship with them because he fought plenty of their fighters. Stevie Johnston was a bad dude and everybody knew it. Again it’s convenient to say ,”yeah but Floyd beats him anyway” but I’m not one to suggest that everytime a guy doesn’t fight somebody.
Next up we have 140. Floyd fought two eliminators at 140 in order to fight for the WBC belt that Arturo Gatti had. He was the big dog at the time. I suppose he could have angled to go after the best fighter in the division which was Kostya Tszyu. The fight was never made. Tszyu is regarded as the best 140 pounder of this era, how is that not legacy defining. He was also the unified and RING magazine champion.
Now we go to 147. You talk about Paul Williams. You don’t even get the science behind certain things. “They” said Floyd wanted no part of Margarito and he was offered 8 million to prove it. Instead he fought Baldomir which was understandable because he was the RING champ. But Paul Williams instead fought Margarito. You’re NOT following me, so let me help. Williams and Floyd are under the same management. Williams beating Margarito in a sense takes an opponent away from Floyd. Brilliant move. More knowledge for you. Floyd, Vernon Forest and Andre Berto are all under the same management. Did you know that Berto fought for Floyd’s vacant belt at 147 and Forest fought for Floyd’s vacant belt at 154. Look it up bro.
I’m trying to give you insight on the maneuvering. So at 147 we have Margarito who stormed back into contention, Williams who was a monster and destroyed Quitana in the rematch, Cotto was a huge draw on the east coast and he had just beat two well known black fighters in Mosley and Judah. Remember Floyd has never done his thing in the Garden.
You take those guys plus Pacquiao and you have roughly 10 fighters that Floyd could’ve fought and it would have enhanced his legacy. What did I say wrong? It doesn’t mean he’s not great because he is. It just means that he made several business decisions instead of legacy decisions. But you have to take into consideration that some of the legacy defining fights, also make BIG business sense.
Every fighter I named was IN the same division at the same time for an extended period of time that Floyd was. I know that everything is not his fault. But when you have that many fights NOT happen, it does raise an eyebrow. I was extremely fair. I didn’t bring up the negotiations with Winky Wright , that mysteriously just dropped after months of bad talk. Wright was way too big and they weren’t in the same division. I didn’t bring up Vivian Harris stalking Floyd. Harris was not viable, Floyd had much better options. I didn’t bring up Erik Morales who was calling him out. I brought up real viable fights.
At this present time. Floyd can fight Saul Alvarez. Alvarez is better than you guys think. Both are champions at 154. Alvarez is a Mexican icon and Cinco De Mayo is an open date. This fight can be made. Floyd can also fight Sergio Martinez at 154. I won’t say he’s ducking him because Martinez is huge. But it is a makeable fight. Sometimes great fighters do things we don’t think they can. Floyd can also fight Pacquiao but I won’t get into that.
Out of the 3 Canelo seems the most logical, let’s see if the fight gets made.
91-0 with 84 kos, Thomas bow out gracefully.
Hey Bread,
Got a comment on last night's Rios-Alvarado fight for the bag. What is wrong with fighters like Alvarado these days? Are they too f'n macho to take a knee when they get hurt and allow themselves to recover ? Is this just inexperience or what ? Shouldn't he have used some veteran tricks such as spitting out the mouthpiece to allow himself to recover? I always thought that if you find yourself in trouble, you are taught to take a knee or spit out the mouthpiece to allow some small amount of recovery time and to prevent getting hurt even more which could allow you to get back into the fight. Why just lay on the ropes and allow someone to tee off on you like that knowing full well that the ref could step in to stop the fight ? He cost himself a fight and cost the fans more rounds of brutal action. The same thing has happened before with other fighters. I can't remember which ones in recent memory but I think it was the Kirkland-Angulo was the most recent if I'm not wrong where instead of taking a knee, Angulo allowed himself to get beat into oblivion. What are your thoughts on this Bread ?
Tommy
Phoenix, AZ
Bread’s Response: Alvarado did not have a chance to use veteran tricks. After a quick volley the referee stopped the fight. Alvarado was not wobbling around for 30 or 40 seconds helpless where using a trick would apply. He got hit with a few good shots, he fell back towards the ropes with his hands up and the referee stopped the fight.
I don’t care what anybody says that was an early stoppage. I’m not going to get into motives or conspiracy theories but I really believe the referee could have allowed us a more conclusive ending. I have seen fighters caught up in ropes like say a Michael Dokes against Razor Ruddock or Tommy Morrison against Ray Mercer. This was not the case here. This man was hurt but not helpless.
Even Rios said it was a little early. That should tell you something. I don’t want to take away from Rios’s victory but we got denied something ultra special. Mike Alvarado was an undefeated, who has shown remarkable recovery skills,the fight even at worse and he was never down. The first time he got hurt in the fight, the fight was stopped after he took about 4 unanswered blows. Think about that scenario.
In contrast I can go to many fights where a fighter survived that kind of trouble. But I will touch one recently. Amir Khan vs Marcos Maidana. Khan didn’t go down but he was severely wobbly. He was allowed to fight through the rough patch which he did. All I’m saying is Alvarado at least deserved that kind of opportunity.
Kirkland/Angulo is not a good comparison. Kirkland was beating on Angulo for an extended period and Angulo was much more helpless. Angulo had also been hurt several times in that fight. Alvarado was only visibly hurt once, he was never given the chance to see if he could push on.
Hey Bread,
I am here sitting in my hotel room looking at a documentary about the Rocky Movies Saga. They go in deep analysis of the characters, meaning of the movie, etc. I just thought that from your perspective as a proud Philadelphian... What this movie meant for the local boxing community? --Thanks, AO
Bread’s Response: I see your name is Andres. That’s my son’s name, great name. Man when I was a kid I loved Rocky. I actually played an extra in Rocky II. My mom took me out to the shooting where the kid’s chased him towards the Art Museum steps. I took off running after Rocky like a crazed dog. Boy was he fast compared to a little kid. I almost got trampled, true story.
When Rocky III came out, I had a fight move party at my house. I believed it was real, LOL, and of course me being a poor sport I was pissed when Clubber Lang stopped The Rock. When I went so see Rocky IV, afterwards I jogged two miles in the rain while my mom and friends walked behind me shaking their heads.
I’m bringing this up to show you how a kid views these things. As you get older of course your view of these things level off but when the first 4 Rocky movies came out , at the time they came out it was a very BIG deal to me. We would put gloves on and box in the street for a few months after the movie came out. We would argue if Rocky could beat Larry Holmes….
Rocky was great for our city and I thought the first four were really good movies. Rocky still holds weight to people who don’t live here. The Art Museum steps are no big deal to me anymore but just last year Zsolt Erdei the undefeated Hungarian champ, chose to train here in Philly and run the Art Museum steps mainly because of the movie Rocky….
Quick question on Chris Eubank Jr. He's probably next year's big thing from the UK so was just wondering if you'd seen any of his fights and what you thought of him? As he's a Eubank, he comes with a LOT of self confidence (some call it cockyness) but looking at his style he looks as though he might be able to back it up.
There's quite a few videos on YouTube including some of his training with Floyd Mayweather Snr so would be good to hear your thoughts in this potential prospect --Shane, Oxford, UK
Bread’s Response: Eubank seems to be the goods but it’s way too early for me to put a stamp on him. For this level he should quickly be 15-0 with like 12 KOs. After he steps up to the B-class gate test, then holler at me and I will give you a better assessment.
I didn't see you posted you video until after the fights.So as usual i checked it out after watching the fights this past weekend, and man were you on point.1st off Donaire vs Nishioka was a sucker until he got dropped the 1st time.Very disappointed with him and his performance.It looked like he showed up for a payday.But the thing that really hit home was the blood on nonito's wraps after the fight again.Them gloves are really messing his hands up.Robert garcia seems like a knowledgeable guy about the sport, why hasn't he addressed this issue.Also i don't like how nonito is looking like he is ducking rigonduex.OK the guy has 11 fights but he is a top tier fighter in that division and has a legitimate belt.Whats going on with that? Now Rios/Alvarado wasn't the classic we expected but it was a very good fight.Like you said, i thought alvarado had his best moments when he boxed and stayed mobile.I didn't like him coming into the fight because i thought prescott put hands on him too easy.Rios didn't look like he carried his power up to me but he hurt alvarado and finish him.I did notice rios doesn't get hit as clean as people think.He blocks alot with his arms and top of his head as you stated.Call me crazy but i think Amir Khan would beat Brandon Rios.I think he would box and move and not get caught with nothing big.Mike lost no credibility tonight and I would love to see him in with Ajose Olusegen next.Great job on your boxing eyes and some of these big names need you in there corner,for real.What do you think each fighter should do now? Peace and keep it coming
Bread’s Response: Nonito is a flat out great fighter and he’s a HOF in my opinion. But you’re right, he is not making any sense for his reasons to not fight Rigondeaux. He has stated that Rigondeaux won’t press the action which is ridiculous, you can’t tell a man how you want him to fight you. Then he stated that no one knows Rigondeaux. Well Nonito must have forgotten that he just fought a Japanese fighter that no one over here knew. An African fighter who was even less well known and an Argetine fighter who was a stinker and even less well known.
Rigondeaux is better than all three of those guys. Rigondeaux has been on HBO more times than ALL of those guys put together. The reasons Nonito have stated just aren’t valid. Nonito needs to realize that Rigondeaux is a major threat to his supremacy in the division. There is absolutely no need to move to featherweight, when junior featherweight is the better division. I know Nonito wants to fight a Mexican star in front of a big crowd. So let him showcase Jorge Arce. But after that he needs to fight Rigondeaux. If he doesn’t it’s a DUCK. There is no other way to look at that.
One more thing. Nonito would knock Rigondeaux out. I have studied it very closely. But my pick is starting to scare me because I’m not sure if Nonito believes it himself.
I think Nonito should fight Jorge Arce, Rigondeaux and the winner of Mares/Moreno. Nonito is a big enough star where he can force hands on making the fights.
Rios should let his body heal and make the biggest fights available against non movers. I hear they are going after PAcquiao. That makes great money sense but if Manny is Manny, Brandon can’t beat him. Bad style for him but good payday. Manny is getting older so…..
WuZ up Breadman,
A quick question, everyone says Floyd is the best defensive fighter ever but I tend to disagree. To me I think that would have to go to Pernell SweetPea Whitaker. What's your take on comparing the two. Who do you think is the better defensive fighter?
E from Bmore
Bread’s Response: Floyd and Pernell Whitaker are amongst the best defensive fighters ever no doubt. I think Willie Pep is the best ever. But I get what you are saying.
Whitaker had more rough spots than Floyd. Every once in a while Whitaker played too much or he suffered a flash knockdown. Floyd has had less daring moments.
The comparison is very close but if you twisted my arm I would say Whitaker. Although he had more slip ups, I think that was because of his clowning and where he positioned himself. Whitaker is one of the few guys I have seen that can make a crowd ooh and ah with defense.
His eyes were always wide open and I think he had more defensive moves than Floyd. Whitaker rolled which is very hard to do. He slipped which is common. He blocked or parried. And he smothered you ala Andre Ward. Whitaker also had one of the best jabs ever and you may not know this but a well timed jab is great for defense. It forces your opponent to re position himself and it allows you to gauge his attacks.
I’m nit picking because Floyd is awesome defensively. I just think Whitaker may be a hair, a smidge better. If somebody picked Floyd I swear I wouldn’t argue it’s that close.
Send questions and comments to: dabreadman25@hotmail.com
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