BOXINGTALK'S BI-WEEKLY BREAD
By Stephen Edwards

I wanted to respond to two of answers one fromyour mailbag and the Manny-Floyd artilce; first the Cotto-Marg answer to me even if you have loaded gloves that still doesn't mean you will be abletouse them properly what if Cotto would have KO'd him in the 1st round. Paul Williams beat Margs and who knows how long he has been using plaster in his gloves. Cotto loss because the flaws in his last couple of fights came out even more. Lets be honest before the Yuri Foreman fight when was the last time he really impressed you. Maybe the Quintana fight or the guy from the Contender who names slips my mind right now. Chop Chop should have Ko'd him but low blows saved him in that fight and ref stopped fight when it didn't need to be stopped; almost the same thing with Zab he was busting Miguels ass until the low blows and Zab is even less conditioned than Cotto. If Shane puts any type of pressure in the last two rounds he Ko's him Miguel was a deadman walking from round 10 on I don't if Shane couldn't get footing like he said but he should have stopped him late. This is not to take credit away because Cotto has done his thing but the loaded gloves was maybe only part of the part problem I haven't seen him throw to the body like a killer in a long time and late in fights he has a hard time getting his second wind and Tony exposed all of that loaded gloves or not. I agree with most of what you said in the Manny-Floyd article I've said many times Manny would be better off getting rid of all the clowns in his circle including Bob Arum. When he gave Floyd the deadline I knew he wouldn't sign the contract. You saying Floyd only cares about money and himself really isn't a revelation honestly I think he will admit that soI don't see why that is a shocker honestly. He is going to do what he wants to do and hes not going to let a person,place or thing come between it. Its not fair to the us fans no but thats the way it is. If the fight is going to happen it will but besides that it wont hurt my feelings is if it doesn't. How do you see a Ray Lenoard vs Ray Robinson at 157 catchweight going. Hagler vs Calzache, Sweet pea vs Manny @140, Shane vs Chavez @ 135, Tyson vs Earnie Shavers.


Bread’s Response: I am not usually one to convict a person without absolute proof. But in this rare case I openly say because of the facts that I have accumulated , I firmly believe Margorito used loaded gloves against Cotto. That being said there were many factors and not just gloves that led to Cotto’s defeat. But in my humble opinion, those loaded gloves and jump started confidence Margarito had during the fight, were the most influential factors.
 
I have always been impressed by Cotto. Cotto is a flawed fighter, so it is easy to point out different instances during each one of his fights were he looked flawed. But he is at the same time a great fighter. I loved his performances against Mosley, Judah and Quitana. Those fights propelled him into superstar status. He beat each guy cleanly. Period.
 
Leonard and Robinson would not have to meet at a catch weight, when both of their prime weights were 147. I made this pick before. I would not take any fighter over Ray Robinson 160 and under. In my opinion he is just too much for everybody. Leonard is my favorite fighter but he would lose to Robinson. Leonard would not get stopped he is a dog and underrated puncher. I say Robbie on a 9-6 type of 15 round decision. There is some new stuff on you tube about Robinson. Some footage from his welter years and footage before 1952. Anything after that he is too far from his prime. Check it out.
 
Hagler vs. Calzaghe is tough. Calzaghe is bigger and faster. Wow tough fight. Man you got me I really can’t pick a winner. I think Hagler is the better natural fighter but Calzaghe is more athletic. Another point is , I think Calzaghe is a smallish light heavy weight who happened to fight at 168 and Hagler is a natural 160lber. Marvin may be slightly better pound for pound but a head to head fight would be even.
 
Pete vs. Manny would be a tough high contact fight. I would take Pete because he always seemed to land that smooth left hand counter. Manny would be in his ass and he would have to really work for it. Whitaker is much stronger physically than people ever gave him credit for and he was a great body puncher. All we seem to remember about him is his slick defense. He also had one of the best jabs ever, especially for a short man and his biggest asset was his toughness. Pete was a real dog. I would take him on a 7-5 decision.
 
Shane vs. Chavez would be a war. I always talk about what Chavez did to Rosario. That in my opinion was his greatest performance. You guys really need to watch it. By time he got to 140 and turned into a star he had slowed down just a peg. Chavez is actually a better boxer than Shane and much harder to hit cleanly. Shane is just more athletic. I would take Chavez and I think it would look a lot like Shane vs. Cotto. Chavez knew how to box coming forward.
 
Tyson would knock Shavers out within the first 2 rounds. Shavers is simply not gifted enough to deal with Mike. His only chance would be a punchers chance but Mike takes single punches well. See the Ruddock fight. Mike’s problem is he discourages when he takes beatings. Shavers would not get that far.
 

The grudges, ill will, greed, and overall egos of the promoters and managers are preventing some entertaining matchups, not the fighters themselves. I’m so sick of [promoter] Bob Arum’s greed and BS. Of course all parties are to blame for not making the “you know who’s fight” but come on….this stable of young fighters at 140 would test you know who. And any one of them could be ready by Nov 13th, barring injuries. I like Nonito Donaire also. I saw him on one of these boxing shows late one night, and he was strategically breaking down that infamous left hook that starched Vic Darchinyan. Classic. This kid should be a star by now. He’s articulate, engaging, funny, and extremely smart in the ring. And simply because he left Gary Shaw after the fight is why we still don’t have a rematch. And for whatever reason, he has been unable to capitalize on the one of the most devastating knockouts and surprises of the lower weight classes. I know Vic was the bigger name at the time, but Vic has taken another loss last year, which to me, takes him down a little more from that pedestal. Therefore, maybe it’s a money and name thing, but Donaire shouldn’t be the one being asked why hadn’t a rematch taken place. This question is more appropriate for Vic. DC
Bread’s Response: I agree with everything you said. No need to repeat it. One thing to add however. Donaire and Pac are both Filipino. They are both under Top Rank. I can’t understand why Donaire is not showcased on Manny’s undercards. They already have the huge audience in place, for this kid to take the torch. Very puzzling to me.
 
 
 
This is my first time writing in, though, I have been checking the
site since '06. I must say, I find most of the material on here
interesting and discussion worthy. I would like to see more of the
behind the scenes put into print, that is by far my favorite content. I commend Leon on what he has accomplished so far in this boxing business, being not that far off in age from G. I enjoy Bread's knowledge and insight. He breaks it down so as not to leave any ambiguity in his mailbag. Rowe. Let's just say that while I enjoy his work, I can't help but find some of his opining too extreme. Mayweather has more to prove (if he still can) to crack the all time top 10 - let alone 20. But, I do appreciate his passion and maybe someday we will have the opportunity to debate such matters. Just a few quickies. Gavilan of around '47-48 vs Luis Rodriguez, say, '63? Billy Conn vs Gene Tunney of American L.Heavy Championship before move up? Harry Greb, my favorite, vs pre-WWII middleweight Ezzard Charles? I'll go Gavilan shading the late rounds for a close duke. Tunney-Conn a toss up, but leaning towards the measured, scientific approach of Gene, slightly. As far as Greb against that version of Charles depends on whose era they fought. I see Greb mauling and overwhelming
Charles to a points nod in a more "loosely" regulated decision in the '20s. Perhaps, in Charles time he could do enough to reverse the verdict. But it must be kept in thought, that this was not as an
experienced or physically matured Ezzard. Keep up the superb work and I hope to see this in one of the mailbags Mike from Tampa


Bread’s Response: Thanks Mike we are trying to do our thing. We want BT to be the number#1 site on the net. We are trying to make it so appealing that the sponsors are kicking our door down.
 
As for your question , I can tell you know what you are talking about. You brought up some serious, all time great underrated names. I can tell you have watched them fight or else you would not have stated the question in the form you did.
 
Gavilan/Rodriguez is a helluva a fight. I am really big on Gavilan. He gave a prime Ray Robinson 2 really competitive scraps. The Kid is one of my top 5 welters ever. He had everything except a huge ko punch but he made up for it with his work rate and combination punching. Rodriguez was a real underrated bad ass. I know him well because I am an avid Ali fan and they trained out of the same gym in Miami. Rodriguez also beat some of Philly’s finest in Bennie Briscoe and Georgie Benton. He also beat Emille Griffith, Benny Paret, Curtis Cokes and Vincente Rodon. Rodon fought Bob Foster in a light heavy weight unification fight and Rodriguez was just a blown up Welterweight. El Feo has some pedigree.
 
When you have two fighters of similar pedigree, I usually take the more dynamic fighter. Gavilan is a better athlete, so I would take him in a close one. All time great fight at 147 between 2 of the best.
 
Conn vs. Tunney is another tough one. You are really making me work. Tunney is so historically underrated. People really hold what he did to an old Dempsey against him. Tunney holds a rare distinction of one of a few fighters to beat every fighter he has ever faced. He was a master boxer with an educated left hand. He fought almost in a modern style before the style became  prevalent in the 30’s. Billy Conn is what I call a natural boxer. His career started out spotty like many fighters back then because of there was no management protection.
 
Tunney was more perfect overall but I think for one night Conn would be a shade better. Conn was a great combination puncher and I think that would sway the judges, give me Conn on a historical upset.
 
Harry Greb is in just about everybody’s top 10 all time. Charles is in just about everybody’s top 25 all time. You even threw me a monkey wrench when you said pre WWII Charles. Charles went on a serious historic run AFTER the war. He had to take 2 years off because of it. Charles was so good, my grand pop once asked Ray Robinson to fight him. Ray replied, “ dam I thought you liked me! I can’t mess with Charles, he is almost as good as me and 25lbs bigger. He can beat heavyweights.”  I know why you said pre War. Because after the war Charles’s body really filled out and he would have been too big for Greb.
 
Greb was an animal in the ring and he had no problem fighting black fighters. Tiger Flowers, Jack Blackburn and Zulu Kid. Many white fighters of that time did have a problem with fighting black fighters but Greb obviously didn’t care. Charles advanced modern style would not trouble Greb as much as some would think. Greb fought and beat some really advanced boxers in Gene Tunney , Maxie Rosenbloom and Tommy Loughran.  Greb fought with an athletic world wind pressure style , where it really didn’t matter what his opponent was doing. He along with Armstrong are best two pressure fighters ever and I would take him to beat a pre Prime Charles by a hair.
 
whats up bread do you think tito trindad will come out of retirement and fight again? the only 2 fights i can see him still interested in is if joe calzaghe came out of retirement too or a lucian bute fight.Where do you think chad dawson goes after the jean pascal fight? It looks like hopkins is ducking him, kelly doesnt want to move up and the super six is going on.Lastly what will Andre berto next move be?Demetrius hopkins have called him out and so have Mike jones.A fighter his age should be more active.Peace and good luck with everything.


Bread’s Response: I know Tito loves to fight but I think he is done. He also made 15 million against Roy Jones so his pockets should be fully lined. I think Dawson will fight Tavoris Cloud next if Cloud beats Johnson. Pavlik is in limbo. Berto should be more active. There seems to be some rule these days that once a fighter wins a belt he can only fight twice a year. Some promoters even put that in contracts where they are only willing to guarantee 2 fights a year after a fighter wins a belt. This in my opinion is why fighters 30 years ago are better. They simply apply their craft more, because they fight more. Berto should be fighting at least 3 or 4 times a year. If he can’t get an HBO date he should fight showcase fights against B Level guys on Versus or something. James Toney used to do it all the time. Maybe that’s why he was so dam good. Berto is waiting around to see what will happen between Floyd and Manny.
 
Like we said before, people who talk that Pryor shit don't know the timeline. Alexis Arguello, a damn Lightweight, was the betting favorite over Pryor in Nov 82. I love Aaron but he had sloppy ways and poor balance. He would have had his moments but I have little doubt that the sharper, faster, and more complete fighter would have won...and that was Ray. Pryor threw a lot of punches but his ass was WIDE open for countering and Ray would have eventually put his ass into orbit. Leave that one alone brah. Cats will watch Legendary Nights or read some interview and think they know the deal. At that point, Pryor wasn't worth much of a pay check and everybody who knows the game understands this.  Top 10 is a damn stretch and that's putting in mildly. Stick to your guns and tell those fools to do the research. Floyd is ultra-talented but his resume (not his faulty entirely) just doesn't hack it. Plus, I can name at least 15 guys who were just as talented. People are always stuck on their own era. For instance, I know cats love to put Jay Z and Eminem on the top of the MC ranks but there's NO WAY IN HELL either has shit on Rakim. Hell, Big Daddy Kane can out-flow both of them as well! The whole "Floyd Party" sounds like some gay shit to me. I think some of your posters have Mayweather pillows and think about his ass in their dreams. Last time I checked, your list is YOUR list. If you put Ray Mancini on that bitch it's your choice. Keep up the work and don't let anybody bait you into any Elementary type debates.


Bread’s Response: Sarge for those who can’t tell, I know you are referring to the falsity that Ray Leonard ducked Aaron Pryor. It’s just pure ignorance. I hate going into a discussion with someone who already has their minds made up. I get emails from Floyd’s fans justifying his actions all the time and they bring up Leonard as a crutch. It’s so sad.
 
Ray Leonard, De La Hoya, Holyfield and Hearns fought the best competition in boxing over the last 30 years period. Leonard fought and beat 4 fighters that were better at the time he fought them than anybody Floyd ever beat.
 
Sarge you and I actually WATCHED fights in the 80’s we did not just read about them. That’s why we know Leonard never ducked Pryor. Saying that would be the exact same thing as 30 years from now saying Floyd or Manny ducked Tim Bradley, should they both retire now. It’s just not true. Pryor was an all time great fighter and when people look back on his career they see he fought during the same era as Leonard and they see they were only one weight division apart. Then they see that sensationalized Legendary Nights and they assume Leonard ducked him. But I always say times and dates don’t lie.
 
Ray Leonard retired BEFORE Aaron Pryor became the beast we know today. The fight only became viable when Ray retired. Sarge you are so right in pointing out that Pryor was the underdog against an older , slightly past it Arguello who actually struggled a year earlier with Ray Mancini. That would be the same as Bradley being the underdog against Marquez if they fought now.
 
Ray also fought Duran twice and Hearns while he was supposedly ducking a man who was not a welterweight. Would Floyd be ducking Bradley if he fought Paul Williams and Pac Man twice during the same time period Bradley was calling him out. Nobody ever answers that when I ask. Leonard would have fought Hagler earlier and Pryor and if he did not have that detached retina. Leonard didn’t retire to let the smoke clear. He retired because of a serious injury that was supposedly career ending 30 years ago. The only reason why this BS gets brought up is because Floyd is so often compared to Leonard. If Floyd was a middleweight, they would look at the timelines and say Hagler ducked Mike McCallum. Ridiculous! Or if Floyd was a light heavyweight they would say Michale Spinks ducked Matthew Saad Muhammad. All falsities. But would be spread nonetheless to justify a chink a Floyd’s legacy. 
 
Trust and believe one thing. Ray Leonard would have dealt with Manny Pacquiao accordingly if he was in you know who’s position. As he dealt with just about every other great fighter of his era.
 
 
What’s up Bread! Congratulations on the honeymoon. I have loved Supah Judah ever since he destroyed Sample (?) on ESPN. I was down with him when he lost to Kosta, I thought the fight was stopped early. While it was nice to see him get another spectacular KO, that fight really doesn’t tell us anything. It certainly doesn’t show us if he is ready for one of these young lions at 140. I would love to see Judah fight Juan Urango. Urango can take the fight past the sixth round and that is when we will see if Judah really has changed. Judah has always been a front runner, so an early round KO doesn’t tell us if he has learned to dig deep. If not Urango, match him with Ortiz and see if either of them has what it takes to compete in the late rounds.  What do you think about Ishe’s fight? If he had fought this way for the past 5 years, he wouldn’t be getting fed to blue chippers. He used to bore the shit out of me, but he has blossomed, if only just too late. I thought he won, but it was no robbery.  Take Care! Roy


Bread’s Response: Thanks Roy. I was also a big Judah fan early on. He came to down to Shyne’s song when he faced Terron Millet and I thought he would be a Hall of Famer. Zab is a special talent. But I became frustrated with him throughout the years. A Urango fight would be good to see if he could beat him more impressively than Berto or Alexander. Golden Boy will not put Ortiz within a mile of Zab right now.
 
I thought Ishe fought a good fight. Ishe knows how to fight , he just does not know how to win. There is a huge difference. There is a certain sequence of actions that great winning fighters always duplicate in their fights. Ishe can not do this. It’s a shame. He needs somebody to watch him spar “in the ring” and keep reminding him to dictate the action with a positive body rhythm. Ishe always appears to me to just be fighting, instead of fighting to win.

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